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Post by faskew on Mar 2, 2018 13:42:37 GMT -5
I still am freaked out by the artist being raped by a batch of boy prostitutes. He almost certainly would have one or more STDs from that, and there was no cure for any of them at that time. There's been no mention of him seeking medical help, but every time Sara seems to like him, I want to yell out and warn her away. 8->
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Post by debutante on Mar 2, 2018 13:58:02 GMT -5
Fred,
Oh, she's [the secretary] probably going to "friend zone" him. She's the type who craves a challenge and she knows she can have him if she wants. She has her eye on the doc.
I don't think she will get him because he has "issues" [to put it mildly] plus-- the housekeeper looks very possessive of him -- could be a cat fight down the road. There's a reason we've been shown there's some kind of "interest" beyond employer/employee. I wonder if she has other duties besides housekeeping and cooking...
-- Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2018 16:48:58 GMT -5
Lily, I'll say neither. The docs got some bats in his belfry and there's some weird undefined relationship with his housekeeper [Panty sniffing in her room? Sure, buddy, and all the while looking at other people like they're the ones with all the problems? Right!] So I'm guessing that the doc has too much pathology to overcome. The artist? I don't think she sees him as enough of a challenge. So this will end I think with her perpetually pining for what she can't have [The doc] as being that she seems a stubborn sort. That would make more sense too if this is taken from a series of books. You could drag unrequited love on indefinitely as she tries to overcome aspects of his "tortured" soul. The artist is just not screwed up enough to intrigue her. -- Debutante So you think she's attracted to a challenge more than chemistry? I suppose that works if it's both. And maybe she has chemistry with Moore, too, but he's too easy. You know, it's kind of like the "bad boy" syndrome with some women. Who knows. But when the series is over, I WANT TO KNOW, dadgummit! Or I'll feel cheated. The housekeeper gives me the creeps. For heavens sake, she killed her father. Burned him to death. She's a total psycho. I imagine that Kreizler met her as a patient. but why hire her? I missed that sniffing of the panty part. But agree, totally weird.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2018 16:59:05 GMT -5
I still am freaked out by the artist being raped by a batch of boy prostitutes. He almost certainly would have one or more STDs from that, and there was no cure for any of them at that time. There's been no mention of him seeking medical help, but every time Sara seems to like him, I want to yell out and warn her away. 8-> I keep thinking about that after you said it the first time. I need to get that out of my head!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2018 17:06:40 GMT -5
Fred, Oh, she's [the secretary] probably going to "friend zone" him. She's the type who craves a challenge and she knows she can have him if she wants. She has her eye on the doc. I don't think she will get him because he has "issues" [to put it mildly] plus-- the housekeeper looks very possessive of him -- could be a cat fight down the road. There's a reason we've been shown there's some kind of "interest" beyond employer/employee. I wonder if she has other duties besides housekeeping and cooking... -- Debutante What is "Friend Zone"? Is that some kind of Facebook thing?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2018 17:21:14 GMT -5
His "tortured" soul smacked her face. Found that most disturbing. Yeah, that slap was quite shocking. But so was Sara in her aggressiveness toward Kreizler. He kept telling her to essentially shut up. And she knew it. She was obviously trying to goad him into revealing a personal sore point for him. She had already been doing that. But then Kreizler was telling everyone to examine themselves, which he himself wouldn't do. But who's to say he didn't.
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Post by debutante on Mar 2, 2018 17:45:58 GMT -5
Lily,
"Friend zone" is modern lingo for guys that girls make into "good friends" even though they know the guy is interested in them. I learned that term from my daughter and her friends. We didn't have a word for it in our day -- although we did it too. Those were the guys that you really liked (as friends) but there just wasn't any chemistry that made you want to look at them "in that way". You know what I mean.
--Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2018 20:12:33 GMT -5
Isn't that leading someone on?
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Post by debutante on Mar 2, 2018 22:47:50 GMT -5
Lily,
Nah. You just keep introducing the guy to your female friends until one finally takes. Then you make two friends happy. And you don't have to outright reject someone. You just keep being "dense" and pretend you don't understand he likes you until you can pass him off to a friend.
--Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2018 23:57:32 GMT -5
I must say, I never had extra boyfriends hanging around that I could give away.
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Post by raybar on Mar 3, 2018 10:55:31 GMT -5
And I must say, I would much rather a woman be honest and just tell me she's not interested in me.
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Post by debutante on Mar 3, 2018 14:50:19 GMT -5
You never saw my friends. I don't believe any of the men were disappointed.
-- Debutante
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Post by raybar on Mar 3, 2018 16:19:30 GMT -5
Let me expand a bit - -
In order to avoid wasting my time and effort, as well as suffering repeated disappointments, I would much rather a woman be honest and just tell me she's not interested in me. What happens later is irrelevant.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 21:36:15 GMT -5
You never saw my friends. I don't believe any of the men were disappointed. -- Debutante What was it that they got?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2018 21:45:05 GMT -5
Lily, "Friend zone" is modern lingo for guys that girls make into "good friends" even though they know the guy is interested in them. I learned that term from my daughter and her friends. We didn't have a word for it in our day -- although we did it too. Those were the guys that you really liked (as friends) but there just wasn't any chemistry that made you want to look at them "in that way". You know what I mean. --Debutante By the way, aren't your daughter and her friends pretty much grown women now with most married with children? What are they doing hanging around unattached guys, who by now should be attached and with families of their own?
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Post by debutante on Mar 3, 2018 22:54:12 GMT -5
Lily,
None of her friends are in a hurry to get married. The one that was married, just had her divorce finalized two weeks ago. The rest of them are glad she got rid of the bum.
My daughter has had some rather "needy" boyfriends which has made her less inclined to view the idea in a favorable light. I really can't blame her because the guys nowadays are nothing like the men we dated. These fellows hang all over the women like barnacles making it almost impossible to get anything done.
Then too, she said that if she got married -- she'd want a pre-nuptial agreement. That would probably go over like a lead balloon with most men, but I fully understand and support her reasoning behind this decision. I don't think she will get many "takers" with that condition. But she's pretty firm -- especially since her friend got taken to the cleaners by her deadbeat husband in their recent divorce.
I keep my mouth shut. It's her life and she has to do what will make her happy.
--Debutante
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Post by debutante on Mar 6, 2018 11:52:43 GMT -5
Yesterday's episode -- SPOILERS
I have to admit that my husband and I are getting a little confused. Yesterday's episode introduced the theory that the killer is an insane ex-soldier who was sent to a mental hospital in the area and released after a six year period.
We were not quite sure how this conclusion was reached; it seemed as if it was the result of some information gleaned from previous letters sent out by Sarah. But even this seemed muddled by the introduction of what is beginning to be too many themes and subplots.
It appears as if the action will be moving out west in the next episode due to the fact that the method of dispatching victims mirrors certain Indian tribal warrior customs.
I wonder why the show is called "The Alienist" when it seems that all the major clues are being dug up through Sarah's efforts.
Sarah is on the "outs" with the doc (presumably over the face slap) When she tells the artist, he confronts the doc and gets belittled for his pains.
The artist cautions the doc that if he continues his behavioral patterns, he can expect to end up alone at the end of his life. This prompts the doc to hit on his housekeeper [ironically I though he had already done that -- I apparently anticipated the action.] The doc shares a meal and some light,intimate, moments with the housekeeper.
There was a scene of the doctor attempting to guide his crippled arm to play the piano with his good one. He stops in frustration. The timing and placement of the scene makes me think this has more to do with the doc's emotional issues more than the physical. This is one disturbed man.
In other areas, the artist was chloroformed by the ex policeman and taken [along with the doc] to JP Morgan's house. The bishop was there and I think Roosevelt (I'm forgetting how many were in the room). All present tried to convince the doctor and artist to give up on the case. The doc held firm in his desire to see it through. The artist went along with the program.
My husband and I were wondering why the fired policeman was chloroforming the artist -- if he isn't being paid -- what's his reason for still hanging around taking òrders?
Overall, we were left with the impression that we may not have seen the killer yet because they keep adding on new characters and concepts. This isn't playing out like you would expect most mysteries to -- we can't think of who the killer could be among those left.
--Debutante
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Post by faskew on Mar 6, 2018 13:55:39 GMT -5
I've about decided to see if I can find Kindle versions of the books from the local library. This trickle of plot each week is too little and too slow. I can finish a book in a day or two and finally know what's happening. 8->
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 16:05:26 GMT -5
Wow, wow, wow--did anyone predict this with Kreizler and Mary? I sure didn't. And even Moore with Sara. There could still be something there.
With only two more episodes, I still have no idea who the killer is. It's possible that at the last episode I'll be thinking--What???--you're kidding me! Lol
Oh, I saw the book at Target yesterday, 20% off, so I bought it. Will not be reading it until after the shows ends. Maybe I can get some of my questions answered.
Deb, I'll be reading your post now.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 16:29:37 GMT -5
Deb, I don't have the same negative feelings about the two men that you do. I have previously asked why did Kreizler even hire Mary in the first place. There already had to be some kind of connection he had already felt, maybe even not knowing it consciously. I don't think Moores's words actually caused Kreizler to do it, but more like moving Kreizler forward to what he really wanted to do anyway, conscious or not.
About the thoughts about the West, soldier and Indians. As I remember it wasn't Sara that brought this up (maybe I need to watch it again). It was one of the detectives that saw the bodies at the autopsy that recognized the wounds from when he experienced this same type of injuries that was done by Inidans/soldiers out West, something like that. And that made Kreizler examine the bodies closer and then he poked some kind of instrument into the body and pulled it out. I don't know what that meant but it does looks like Kreizler has some kind of mind problem. But maybe he just wanted to experience how it felt or what kind of damage it would do. Hard to say.
Maybe they all have some kind of personality problems, but that is was makes it interesting. Everybody has something maybe weird to someone else, one way or another, after all.
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Post by raybar on Mar 6, 2018 18:16:17 GMT -5
I started to write a detailed analysis of Episode 7, but I abandoned it. Not worth the effort.
The main theme of this series is the investigation, which is proceeding at a glacial pace. Very unsatisfactory. We should have some convincing suspects by now - only three episodes remaining - but we are still wondering if we have even met the killer yet. Revealing a tiny little detail or two per episode is not the way to keep my interest.
All we learned this week is that the mutilation of the victims appears similar to certain Indian ritual mutilations that Roosevelt saw in the Dakotas (or somewhere). A scientist at the Natural History Museum confirmed the similarity and also said that Indians did this to hated enemies, never to children. So perhaps the killer is copying such Indian mutilations. And perhaps he does not understand the Indian practices. Or maybe the killer has his own reasons for what he does, and it has nothing to do with Indians.
Sara has found a name - Rudolf Bunzel - in correspondence with Saint Catherine’s Hospital in Washington, which turns out to actually be the Government Hospital for the Insane. I will be surprised if he is the killer. It’s just a bit too convenient. But perhaps, if Kreizler does go to Saint Catherine’s as he said he would, he will learn something of value.
I find all the subplots between Kreizler and everyone around him (Moore, Mary, Sara, Stevie, Cyrus, Cyrus’s niece) really tedious. This is my usual reaction to such character development themes unless they actually contribute to the main story. A bare narrative without any character development is no good either, but it has to take me somewhere worth going, and I don’t seen much of that here. Maybe Kreizler will learn some social skills and stop offending everybody.
And there’s something going on between Connor and Moore. Even as drunk as he appeared to be, Moore should have known better than to walk down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood where - surprise surprise - he is beaten half to death by Connor. Whatever this is about, it can’t be very important.We know that Connor doesn’t kill him, because Moore appears in the second Kreizler novel, “The Angel of Darkness.”
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 21:45:55 GMT -5
Raybar, the human relationship thing in this show is what keeps me watching. Otherwise, I don't think I could have continued. I think of it as a woman thing. But maybe it's really just me. And I don't agree with you about Kreizler, either.
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Post by faskew on Mar 7, 2018 11:04:48 GMT -5
Between the overly-dark visuals, the confusion of characters and their relationships to each other, and the almost non-existent plot, I have to say that I don't think this series was well-done. I'm on hold for a Kindle version of the book from the city library. Depending on when I get access to it, I may finish the first book before the series and maybe it will all make sense. Or not. Sometimes TV series are better than the books that they are based on. 8->
I enjoyed both "Ripper Street" (Victorian London) and "The Knick" (1905 Knickerbocker Hospital, New York) much more. And, of course, "Penny Dreadful". 8->
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Post by raybar on Mar 7, 2018 12:51:49 GMT -5
Well, Lily, as I said, a bare narrative without any real interaction between characters is "no good." Regardless of the plot or subject matter, stories are about people. A story without human elements isn't worth telling or hearing. In the case of "The Alienist," unfortunately, I don't find the characters very interesting, and some of their actions and dialog don't seem credible.
For example, I just don't buy Sara verbally pushing Kreizler so hard that he slapped her, and I don't buy Kreizler slapping her regardless of what she said.
For example, I don't buy Cyrus's niece complaining that Cyrus spent a lot of time in the stables. My parents were friends (through the local PTA) with a man who was caretaker at a small estate nearby. He and his family lived in an apartment above the garage, which prior to cars had been the stables. This is (or was, at least) the typical situation for employees who worked outside the house. Her complaint is a little too 2018 Social Justice Warrior for a story set in 1896. And her promise to reimburse Kreizler for the cost of her education amounts to "Thanks but fuck you." Again, I don't buy it.
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Post by faskew on Mar 7, 2018 16:52:31 GMT -5
Hey, I'm number 37 on hold for 10 copies of the libraries Kindle version. I'll have that sucker read by the 4th of July for sure. 8-D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2018 19:27:16 GMT -5
Well, Fred, I kind of think that this shows that the show is at least popular with some people who then want to read the book.
And "The Alienist" is just one of the books in a series of books with this story? Or is the book now out there a consolidation of both/all the books?
Yes, three episodes left. I thought it was only two.
Oh, and I just found that Daniel Bruhl was the main character in the German film "Goodbye Lenin" which I viewed some years back.
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Post by raybar on Mar 7, 2018 23:54:36 GMT -5
The other Kreizler novel is "The Angel of Darkness"
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Post by raybar on Mar 12, 2018 22:26:40 GMT -5
Episode 8 - "Psychopathia Sexualis"
It looks like the killer is someone named Beecham - Kreizler hears about him at St. Catherine's - Sara visits a burned out house in or near New Paltz, New York, about 70 miles north of New York City, and hears some unpleasant details - the Isaacson's interview Beecham's old army commander and hear some unpleasant details - Kreizler and Moore go to Newton, Massachusetts and visit a farm where they also hear some unpleasant details
It is too late in the series for this not to be the killer, and with the separate lines of inquiry all leading to Beecham, there can be little doubt. Or, I could be wrong. Again.
Evidently, Beecham is on to them because he (who else would it be?) follows Kreizler and Moore from New York (we see him on the train) to Washington (we see him at St. Catherine's) and to Massachusetts (where he kills their driver and shoots at them as well). Curiously, after getting out of their crashed coach, Kreizler and Moore talk a leisurely stroll through the woods and stop for a heart felt conversation while someone who just killed their driver and shot at them is nearby.
Meanwhile, in another part of the forest - that is, in New York - Byrnes has yet another chat with Connor who then goes to Kreizler's house, let's things get out of control, and kills Mary. I expect that Byrnes will be displeased with this, especially since Connor very recently killed Willem, who was only supposed to be watched. Now he has killed Kreizler's housekeeper, and that can not be kept quite so Connor will have to face justice of one sort or another.
And on a personal note - - Kreizler and Moore go to Newton, Massachusetts, my home town. "The Alienist" shows Newton as a totally rural area, which is not what it was in 1896. It was, and remains, an actual city, with houses and schools and trolley lines and shopping areas and so on. Perhaps the local Chamber of Commerce will complain to the producers.
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Post by debutante on Mar 13, 2018 2:28:40 GMT -5
To be perfectly honest, when the announcer stated that there were only two more episodes left of "The Alienist" -- my husband let out a hearty, "Thank God!"
I can't say I blame him. What started off as an interesting whodunit has further deteriorated each week into a smorgasbord of plots and subplots, characters appearing and being subsequently discarded -- so much so, that the original themes and plots seem to have been totally discarded [or make no sense within the context of recently revealed information].
This suffers from over ambitious writing. Either that, or there is some clarity in the book that somehow hasn't translated to the screen.
These characters are beginning to irritate me. Perhaps it is because I see no redeeming qualities in the main character. What is missing in his character is a true sense of empathy -- I don't feel he genuinely cares about his patients other than as an intellectual exercise. The same holds true for the victims of the crime. His interest is in proving the viability of his methodology for identifying criminals. Consequently his lack of...being a caring doctor [and I ought to know I live with one] irks me.
I hate him. And I can't imagine why the artist bothers with him as he appears to have some sensibilities.
But all these people are weird. Some are modeled too modern for the time period, others oddly one dimensional and none genuinely likeable except.perhaps. the artist.
What an odd little story this is turning out to be -- and I am not even sure if the latest candidate introduced as a suspect will turn out to be our murderer.
With the way they're playing fast and loose with introductions and departures -- it could well turn out to be some random person passing by in a crowd.
Perhaps the book is better and it has lost something in adaptation.
But this started out so well...and now it just is annoying.
-- Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2018 16:08:31 GMT -5
I have the total opposite opinion of your's, Deb, I like the drama, I like the humaness of it all. I think that talk between Moore and the doctor in the woods after the carriage went off the bridge, really got to me and showed that Kreizler was a damaged man, but even then understood himself and really had those deep feelings inside, and I feel so bad that Mary was killed. She really showed herself to be a courageous person who was going to defend Kreizler no matter what, even to the extent of losing her life. I now feel that Kreizler's mother was a mentally ill person and that probably explains why he got into psychology to understand himself and her. I no longer care who is the killer and I will be sorry when this series ends. Read more: unfacts.freeforums.net/thread/3420/mans-problem?page=1#ixzz59fJ3enP4
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