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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2018 22:49:05 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I stopped watching at around 10 or 15 minutes. I just couldn't take the horrible conditions and poverty that those people had to live in plus the violence and gore. Too, too dark for me.
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Post by debutante on Jan 31, 2018 1:19:38 GMT -5
Lily,
You're right -- it's dark -- and promises to become darker still. But undoubtedly, virtue will triumph, so I am taking all of the gore with that in mind.
--Debutante
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Post by faskew on Jan 31, 2018 8:46:29 GMT -5
Yes, the poverty and filth can be quite overwhelming. The show is choosing to make the darkness even worse than it really was, as a stylistic choice. The really sad thing is that there's nothing bad in 1896 New York that doesn't exist in the US today - sex slaves, drug addicts, racism, 10 people living in a single room, discrimination against immigrants, police corruption, etc. Some things are better (no more dumping of chamber pots out the window), but some are about the same. 8-<
The artist character is too stupid to live, but I suppose he will survive his poor choices and continue on for 8 more episodes.
I found the BBC series "Ripper Street" much more entertaining. Yes, it too deals with poverty in a large Victorian city, but there are scenes where the sun is shining! And like noir detectives of the 30-40s, the Ripper Street cops offer hope.
There's also the Cinemax medical series "The Knick", set in New York about 1905 or so. Again, similar background, but not every character is wrapped in gloom for every scene. One interesting thing about The Knick, is that as far as I can tell, all the weirdest stuff in the series actually happened, although not necessarily to the series characters. For example, there was a doctor in New York at the time who believed that all mental illness was caused by bad teeth. His "cure" was to pull all the teeth of his patients. True story.
I'm not sure I'll finish The Alienist. It's slow to get started and way too depressing for someone like me who is already depressed. But I'll watch another episode or two, just to see. Anyway, for those interested in period pieces of this sort, I recommend Ripper Street and The Knick.
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joan
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Post by joan on Jan 31, 2018 9:42:26 GMT -5
Despite all the hype for the show it did not get sterling reviews. I will continue to watch it. Lily, would you try the book? Extremely well-written and engrossing.
Fred, conditions such as these shown may exist today, but they are not the norm as they were for immigrant enclaves like the Lower East Side of NYC. My mother was selling shopping bags on the street at 5 years old in the twenties. The poverty was much worse back then. Never thought of you as depressed, sorry to learn this. I don't find the show depressing, just don't like waiting a week between episodes (and those commercials, lol).
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Post by faskew on Jan 31, 2018 14:23:38 GMT -5
I agree that things are mostly better, but there are spots even in the US that really aren't that much different than the "good old days". And most of the world is not as well off as we are.
Granted, it was a long time ago, but I was put out in the fields as a pre-schooler, as soon as I could pull a bag, picking cotton and such in the heat and humidity of south Texas. I lived in several rural abandoned buildings without indoor plumbing or electricity. One unheated place we lived in had a hole in the ceiling and snow would blow in and cover the bed during northers (up near Lubbock, where the weather is like Kansas). So my childhood wasn't as bad as in the series, but it was pretty close. And there are still people living like that.
My depression is situational. Just as I hit 70, I was 80% laid off from my contract job (no benefits). Only work one day a week now. Fortunately, my social security kicked in at the same time, or else I'd be living under a bridge somewhere. Been job hunting for 14 months now. Not even a nibble. My finances are slowly leaking away like a deflating balloon. Not physically depressed, just worried about getting old in a nation where elders and vets and such are treated like disposable goods. Lots of talk about making things better, but very little action. Sigh.
Anyway, more than you wanted to know, I'm sure. LOL
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Post by debutante on Jan 31, 2018 15:38:59 GMT -5
Fred,
As silly as this suggestion may sound at first, at least think it over before outright rejecting it out of hand.
On the Whitehouse website, there is a section where you can email Trump. Of course, you will probably get an underling -- but it doesn't matter. What matters is that you be heard.
You are intelligent and articulate. I think you should let "tell your story" somewhere where it might actually do you some good.
The worst that can happen is nothing. But perhaps, you might get some individual attention [I've heard Trump can be surprising in that manner -- assuming of course, the matter finds its way to his attention]. And I trust your writing skills enough to think it may.
-- Debutante
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Post by faskew on Jan 31, 2018 16:42:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the suggestion. Although I have very low expectations that anyone there would pay attention to me, I'll consider it. There are still 10-15 US vets per week committing suicide and maybe 40K or so living in the streets. Obviously these people should be ahead of me in any line for help, but I haven't seen much change for them in the past few years. 8-<
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joan
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Post by joan on Jan 31, 2018 16:50:45 GMT -5
Fred! You might have to give up stuff, like your DVR! LOL- If it weren't for my son, financially speaking, I'd still have a roof, still have (not much) food (I am on Food Stamps) and little else. I'm not complaining, I'm still doing better than 80% of humanity (just pulled that percentage out of my head.) I understand your depression and can commiserate with you. Being old & poor has always been a fear of mine; having a wonderful son who wouldn't let me down makes me among the richest women on the planet. Now I'll try to convince myself of that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 17:08:33 GMT -5
The part that finally got to me was then those thugs beat up the father of the boy on the bridge who was savagely killed. And he was all beat up on that bed in that sadly dark room. And they wanted a doctor. That was it. Yes, there are situations like that right now, and I don't want to watch.
On the other hand, thinking about it now, maybe that's the kind of thing more people need to watch and also to know that kind of thing is still happening now and maybe we need to see it to try to change things. I don't know. It's hard.
Maybe that's the point of the series?
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Post by debutante on Jan 31, 2018 17:18:11 GMT -5
Fred,
You are no less worthy of attention than anyone else. And your voice can speak not only for yourself, but for others in your situation. It is the personalization of issues that inspires people to act.
Trump already is inclined toward veterans, please seriously consider contacting him through email. It can't hurt and may possibly net you some kind of assistance.
--Debutante
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joan
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Post by joan on Jan 31, 2018 17:40:45 GMT -5
On the other hand, thinking about it now, maybe that's the kind of thing more people need to watch and also to know that kind of thing is still happening now and maybe we need to see it to try to change things. I don't know. It's hard. Maybe that's the point of the series? That IS a point of the series. It may be fiction, but historical fiction, and if you saw the book you would see how well researched it is. Teddy Roosevelt, as Police Commissioner, tried very hard to bring order to his men. In those days, police would not investigate crimes Unless They Were Bribed to do so. The crimes committed against the poor were not often, but Always ignored. There was very little justice. I think you should continue to watch. IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 22:10:22 GMT -5
I'll think it over. I can still see the 2nd episode. Those thugs just made me so angry and I felt really sorry for that family.
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Post by faskew on Feb 1, 2018 14:45:35 GMT -5
Deb wrote: >Trump already is inclined toward veterans, You mean like when he mocked John McCain for spending 6 years being tortured in a North Vietnamese POW camp?: "He's not a war hero. He's a war hero because he was captured. I like people that weren't captured." I knew at that point that I could never vote for him. 5-time draft dodger? Well, OK. Wish I had been rich, too. Mocking war heroes? No way. Trump, Obama, Congress - they all talk about vets but there's little to show for it after the hot air has passed. Anyway, like I said, I'll consider it. There was a related article on Wired News today. Shows that it's not impossible to be heard, just very unlikely due to the poor and out-of-date system. What It Takes to Make Congress Actually Listen www.wired.com/story/opengov-report-congress-constituent-communication/
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Post by debutante on Feb 1, 2018 16:29:11 GMT -5
Hi Fred,
McCain is a poor example. He's got a sketchy reputation as a vet and if half the things I've heard about him are true; it's a wonder his unit didn't hunt him down after the war. So I'm not surprised that he doesn't rate too highly on the respect meter.
I am sorry the man is ill, but wonder why someone with diagnosed brain cancer is allowed to continue in his position. He should be "retired" with full salary and benefits. Why is everyone pretending that brain cancer has no effect upon a person's judgment? No offense to the fellow, but I wouldn't trust him to fill out a grocery list, much less run a government position. Is there no ruling to cover such illness? If not, there should be.
But I am digressing -- overall vets are higher on the food chain in this administration than a lot of other groups [and slow progress is being made,but it could always use another little nudge].
However, you do present a point of view that should be taken into consideration. You are trying to solve a problem before it occurs [by supplementing your income] bit are unable to find work. Trump's administration needs to know the age range of people who find themselves in this situation and brainstorm solutions.
Hearing directly from the public certainly beats the usual time and money wasting fact finding committees government is prone to set up. But that's just my opinion.
-- Debutante
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joan
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Post by joan on Feb 1, 2018 16:45:46 GMT -5
McCain's unit? You mean the Hanoi Hotel? The same place McCain could have left early but refused special treatment? I'm no fan of McCain's politics at all, but really deb. Trump was a draft dodger. I don't blame him for that, that's where my sympathies were and are. Still true though. McCain = Hero of Hanoi Hotel (in a war that was wrong) / Trump = Draft Avoider (not that there's anything wrong with that).
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Post by debutante on Feb 1, 2018 18:26:14 GMT -5
Joan,
I have little liking for RINOS -- so McCain can't leave fast enough to suit me.
Insofar as Trump -- he had 4 college deferments [not unusual for the time] and 1 medical deferment for bad feet.
The latter I can understand. I wore "corrective shoes" with lead weights my entire childhood. Painful surgery was an option,but with no guarantee of success.
If something is off in the anatomy of your feet -- physical things just aren't in the cards. Forget about sports, and most certainly bad feet aren't going to make it through a march. It just isn't possible.
So is that draft dodging? No -- he'd slow everyone else down because of his problems and people would have been killed trying to protect him because he couldn't keep up. Better to give him a deferment for the safety of an entire squad. They can't afford to have someone that has a disadvantage that needs looking after when they are trying to accomplish a mission without getting killed.
Bad feet are a huge disadvantage.
--Debutante
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Post by faskew on Feb 2, 2018 9:15:51 GMT -5
>>he'd slow everyone else down because of his problems and people would have been killed trying to protect him because he couldn't keep up.
Nothing to do with Trump, but rather the old draft system. Since the early 20th century, the majority of military personnel are not combat troops. In WW2 there were something like 10 support troops (clerks, mechanics, cooks, etc.) for every man carrying a rifle. These days it's probably around 15-1. Or more. Even in Vietnam times, most people in the military sat in a chair all day. There was absolutely no good reason to turn down folk for minor physical problems.
Plus, people with money could get doctors to come up with "problems". The draft doctors didn't double-check most things to see if they were real. You're wealthy and you got a excuse-letter from a doctor? Go home. Another reason the Vietnam draftees were disproportionately from poor families.
McCain - Deb, I agree and disagree. Like Joan said, McCain spend 6 years being tortured. Many of his physical problems today are a direct result of that. He had an option to leave early, but he chose to stay. I don't like it when people refer to everyone in the military as a "hero". There are plenty of thieves, rapists, and murderers in uniform, which is why the military has its own prison system. But if "hero" has any meaning, it fits McCain.
But, yes, his brain cancer is a serious concern. And he will likely either die or be forced to retire before this year is over. But he's not the only one. Congress is full of old men with serious physical and mental problems. There needs to be some sort of check, like most states do for a driver's license. They should have to pass a mental test of some sort every year over the age of 60 to see whether they're still functioning properly. Of course, term limits might achieve the same thing, but sometimes even the young ones need testing, since alcoholism and drug abuse is common up there (in both parties).
>overall vets are higher on the food chain in this administration than a lot of other groups ---In talk, yes. In action, no.
BTW, did you see the article I referenced above (What It Takes to Make Congress Actually Listen). Even politicians with the best intentions are hampered by out-dated equipment and lack of staff. Yes, sometimes a voice gets through. But mostly, people in power never see the messages. 8-<
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Post by debutante on Feb 2, 2018 21:59:29 GMT -5
Hi Fred, I skimmed over your article yesterday because I didn't have time to read it thoroughly. Yesterday was Rev's birthday and I spent the day harassing him. I'll read it over tomorrow. Today I spent catching up with some knitting patterns -- I fell in love with this little doll pattern that's too small for a "Little Darling" and the person who drafted the pattern and I are attempting to adjust it to fit the "Darlings". (See how I spend my time? I am getting very good at this doll knitting stuff though -- you should see some of my things!) Anyhow...I don't doubt that there are problems getting though....but if you don't try at all that's even worse. Look at these sausages from Chicago (who shall remain nameless) -- between them, they don't have a functioning synapse -- but they make a lot of noise, the media falls all over them for their "opinions", they get invited to all kinds of political functions to "speak for" people (and do not do a damn thing for them). Now if they can get attention --- surely someone like you who is fifty times as intelligent and articulate can. Squeaky wheels get the most grease. SQUEAK FRED!!!! --Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2018 14:23:36 GMT -5
I'll think it over. I can still see the 2nd episode. Those thugs just made me so angry and I felt really sorry for that family. Still thinking about it. I would buy the series on Amazon. If there's no discussion after the Monday 3rd episode, I will drop the whole idea.
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Post by debutante on Feb 3, 2018 21:36:36 GMT -5
Lily--
We can't guarantee discussion after the 3rd episode -- this is developing really slowly as a mystery. It is still interesting but there really aren't any clues yet.
--Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2018 22:19:16 GMT -5
Okay, same as before. If no discussion after the third episode, I'm out.
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Post by raybar on Feb 4, 2018 14:00:25 GMT -5
Finally, just now on Sunday morning, saw episode 2. My first concern is with historical accuracy. The story is set in a very specific time and place - the New York City police department in 1896, when Theodore Roosevelt was President of the Board of Commissioners. By setting this fictitious (I assume) story in a real historical context, the producers (who may disagree) have obliged themselves to portray the city as it really was. They have failed on several counts. The most obvious problem is the nearly constant inappropriate and inconsistent lighting. - Some of the night exterior scenes are more brightly lit than are modern cities today. The exterior of the opera house is an example. In 1896 there would have been little or no street lighting, and certainly not enough to illuminate the entire front of a building. - The inside of the horse-drawn carriage should have been in nearly complete darkness. Of course, complete darkness is no good in movies because the audience needs to see what's happening, so we accept a little artistic license, but something that would be pitch black in real life must be kept very dim if it is to look at all realistic. - Some night interiors include (as light sources) brightly lit windows. The corridor in the homosexual brothel is an example. But where is that exterior light supposed to be coming from? Dark streets and alleys do not shine much light through windows. - Some of the night interiors are far too bright, regardless of how many candles, gas jets, and chandeliers are seen. The corridors in the opera house and the private dining room at the restaurant are examples. - and so on. I find it very improbable that a secretary in 1896 would (or would be allowed to) involve herself in an investigation. Not impossible, or course, but hard to believe, especially in view of the fact that "the first woman to work at Police Headquarters, Minnie Gertrude Kelly, was appointed Secretary to the Police Board" in 1895, only a year before this story begins. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_York_City_Police_DepartmentNeither Google nor Wikipedia can tell me who Roosevelt's secretary actually was, or even if he had a secretary, but it would much more likely have been male rather than female. I find it very improbable that a meeting to start an investigation would take place in a fancy restaurant where the waiters would hear everything that was said and see all the evidence that was passed around. This scene should have been set somewhere private, perhaps Kreizler's home. Nevertheless, I'll keep watching, at least the next episode.
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Post by debutante on Feb 6, 2018 4:28:36 GMT -5
Warning Spoilers!
I suspect we had our first glimpse of the murderer tonight, although he wasn't identified as such. There was a scene of young men frolicking in a bath house. A pair of brown eyes is shown in close up just ... observing....
I believe this unknown observer was our first tantalizing glimpse of our wolf among the sheep -- participating in what appeared to be a normal activity of the times. If my guess is correct our killer can go about normal activities without drawing undue attention to himself.
The average age of the patrons in the pool appeared to be mid twenties to mid thirties. What little we saw of the countenance suggested a person in that age group.
It has been suggested by the secretary that "height" and "water" may have meaning to the killer.
I feel the gouging of the eyes is more important. Is it to prevent the victim from seeing something? Or symbolically erasing something the victim has seen?
Question: Why transsexual boys who perform homosexual acts, rather than just homosexuals?
Question: If it was a inherent dislike of women, wouldn't female victims be more likely?
The young male prostitute said these young men perform services street women won't. Could the killer be participating in acts he finds morally repugnant and then killing the object of his "temptation"?
On another note-- there may be a love triangle developing. I believe the artist has feelings for the secretary. She, however, expressed interest in the doctor to her friend-- but that might have been just something to say in an awkward spot so as not to appear the only spinster with no nibbles on the bait.
To all appearances the doctor is not into women, as much as he is into his work. I think the dark haired girl who killed her Dad [and works for him] also harbors feeling for him. He isn't noticing or if he does, he doesn't care. She has a weird affect. I'd watch that one carefully if I were him.
This is moving slowly, but he characters hold interest enough to make me keep coming back for another episode.
--Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 12:29:25 GMT -5
I watched about 10 or 15 minutes, but I tell you I can't handle this subject matter of young boys and pedophiles. And parents selling their boys for money. And the image of the pervert eyeing the boys. And I can't help but think there are pedophiles watching this program. It's sickening, even when in the end they catch the pervert or killer or one and the same. I'm not watching this.
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joan
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Post by joan on Feb 6, 2018 17:12:17 GMT -5
Deb: "I suspect we had our first glimpse of the murderer tonight.........."
What if the true killer is not the one we are led to suspect? Like this guy you mention, or Willem (if they are not the same person?) Maybe these 2 men (or one man) are merely distractions, convenient scapegoats to divert our attention while the real killer is still lurking out there. We're still in the early stages of this mystery, would the author tip us off so soon? Shouldn't the killer be someone we don't suspect? Or know yet?
Deb: "I feel the gouging of the eyes is more important. Is it to prevent the victim from seeing something? Or symbolically erasing something the victim has seen?"
I have just been reading some material on Saints in Art. I just read of St. Lucy, who was martyred and her eyes were gouged out, that she had rejected a suitor. Could Giorgio represent someone who rejected the killer? Deb, do you see any Catholic elements at work here or in the other murders? In the water, or the height of the murder scenes?
The characters are not Catholic, I think they are mostly Knickerbockers, or Americans descended from Dutch Protestants.
"Question: Why transsexual boys who perform homosexual acts, rather than just homosexuals?"
I don't know necessarily if the boys were transsexual. I think they were just trying to earn a living. Their pimps are in control.
"Question: If it was a inherent dislike of women, wouldn't female victims be more likely?"
I don't think dislike of women enters into this at all, just preference for boys.
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Post by debutante on Feb 6, 2018 17:25:46 GMT -5
Lily,
It's heavy duty subject matter for sure, but it is still fiction. I'm sure things like this have gone on somewhere, at some point in time, but there's not much anyone can do other than to let the police do their job and hope for the best.
I doubt an average pedophile would be into this, if it is any consolation to you. This profile is somewhat different. I don't think the average creep murders and mutilates. Generally, you hear stories of a "funny neighbor" who keeps it up for years before finally getting unmasked and caught.
That's not to say there couldn't be a sexual sadist out there somewhere tuned in -- anything is possible. But whether you or I, or anyone else on this board watches the program or not isn't going to affect that person's behavior one whit.
Think of it this way -- this might be educational in some respects. There are people so naive that they do not perceive that people such as that exist. If nothing else, this may serve to wake up a few dumb bunnies to take less chances with their personal safety.
So good may come of it.
--Debutante
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Post by debutante on Feb 6, 2018 17:40:36 GMT -5
Joan,
My husband raised that same issue -- but I don't assume the eyes in the bath house necessarily belong to "Willem", nor that this "Willem"is the actual culprit at this point.
But I am sure the eyes belonged to the killer.
I considered a religious aspect briefly but realized it was only due to the preview scenes. Since it is not officially "in evidence" as yet -- I don't want to speculate.
This is moving very slow [in terms of clues]. I bet it will be a long time before a good guess can be made as to who is the killer.
-- Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2018 19:20:24 GMT -5
Lily, It's heavy duty subject matter for sure, but it is still fiction. I'm sure things like this have gone on somewhere, at some point in time, but there's not much anyone can do other than to let the police do their job and hope for the best. I doubt an average pedophile would be into this, if it is any consolation to you. This profile is somewhat different. I don't think the average creep murders and mutilates. Generally, you hear stories of a "funny neighbor" who keeps it up for years before finally getting unmasked and caught. That's not to say there couldn't be a sexual sadist out there somewhere tuned in -- anything is possible. But whether you or I, or anyone else on this board watches the program or not isn't going to affect that person's behavior one whit. Think of it this way -- this might be educational in some respects. There are people so naive that they do not perceive that people such as that exist. If nothing else, this may serve to wake up a few dumb bunnies to take less chances with their personal safety. So good may come of it. --Debutante Deb, whether it's fiction or not, or whether my viewing of this program makes any difference or not is not what I'm concerned about. I don't like it and I don't think it has any redeeming value.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 0:13:30 GMT -5
However, the book apparently is way better.
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joan
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Post by joan on Feb 7, 2018 9:00:57 GMT -5
I read the book when it came out & remember NOTHING of the plot itself; however, after all these years I remembered the main characters, the atmosphere, the writing craftmanship of Caleb Carr. I remember the book is very long, Amazon says 608 pages. Being gory didn't stay in my memory, only thing that does is I really liked it. Of course the book is better, it is the original work on which something else is merely based upon.
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