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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 12:44:38 GMT -5
Over 600 pages? Wow, Joan, and I was thinking about trying the book considering your recommendation and just the fact that it was good enough for a TV series. And I also read that the actor that plays the psychotherapist says he was fascinated by the book, could hardly put it down.
And by the way, I also read that filming was done in Budapest, it being more like New York City during that time period. Now that is really interesting. I have visited that city.
As far as reading the book first that was later made into a movie, I don't like doing that. Every time I've read the book first, I've been disappointed. I guess it's obvious why, although some people like it that way.
I don't know. There's still a chance I might watch the series. If I do, though, it will be through Amazon. No commercials, and I could binge watch it, or off and on, until I catch up. I like the fact of us discussing it.
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joan
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Post by joan on Feb 7, 2018 13:54:42 GMT -5
I think "Gone With the Wind" is the only movie I have ever seen that begins to reach the heights of a superior book experience. The movie is the best screen adaptation of a novel ever, IMO. Of course the movie had to leave out much detail, but it was done seamlessly. I believe I saw the movie first, then read the book, over & over actually, in my young teens. The actors chosen to represent the book's characters---it's like they were being described in the original story. I love very long books---if I love the story I never want it to end.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 14:46:29 GMT -5
The "Gone with the Wind" movie is almost 4 hours long. I suppose that helps in getting in more of the details of the book. Most movies are two hours long, maybe a bit longer and some a bit shorter. The thing with a TV series is that you have to wait a week for the next episode and I think that takes some of the interesting edge off it. And that's probably why more people are waiting and binge watching instead.
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Post by faskew on Feb 7, 2018 14:52:30 GMT -5
Watched the 3rd ep. Not really enjoying it. The artist was very, very stupid. All I could think of was the number of sexually transmitted diseases he almost certainly would have after being raped by a bunch of male prostitutes. LOL
I like things where I either want to be one of the characters or want to live in that world. All these people are stupid and irritating. And I certainly would not want to visit, let alone live there. Ah, well. Will likely continue watching for at least a couple more eps.
This show makes me want to go back and watch Cinemax's "The Knick" again. Similar subjects of class, race, poverty, corruption, etc., but somehow it's simply a better crafted work and not nearly as gloomy and depressing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 15:55:20 GMT -5
Okay, I'm going to go ahead with purchasing the series through Amazon with the assumption that the three of you are going to keep watching and discussing for at least a little while more. Doesn't mean I'm saying you have to continue, of course. But hopefully long enough more for it to be worth it to me.
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joan
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Post by joan on Feb 7, 2018 16:30:05 GMT -5
The "Gone with the Wind" movie is almost 4 hours long. I suppose that helps in getting in more of the details of the book. Most movies are two hours long, maybe a bit longer and some a bit shorter. The thing with a TV series is that you have to wait a week for the next episode and I think that takes some of the interesting edge off it. And that's probably why more people are waiting and binge watching instead. Four hours were needed for a 1,000 page book (1,057 to be precise). Remember those epic films that were so long they had intermissions? If you saw them in a notable theater/movie palace you could also purchase a program. I think I still have mine from "Ben-Hur" or some similar cinematic treasure. Mmmmmmm, I think it might be "Pepe" starring Cantinflas. A two hour movie is usually based on a book one fourth the size of "GWTW", so is that really a good reason for some shoddy jobs? I think the Bond movies were excellent adaptations of Ian Fleming's writings. Well, some stuff is good & some stuff isn't good, that's it. I also don't like waiting a week to watch the next episode of something. It breaks up the momentum. That's why I like Netflix & Amazon Prime for releasing the whole shebang at once. Our TV watching habits sure have changed since our youth when we had maybe 5 channels to choose from. As a TV lover, I'm amazed & grateful! My first memory is being diapered in front of the Milton Berle show, by my father (also a Milton) who was laughing so hard I got slightly scratched by a pin!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 17:40:58 GMT -5
Well, that's true about Gone With The Wind. Truthfully, I've never been good at sitting to watch very long movies as also Cleopatra and Lawrence of Arabia. Even with movie DVD's I have at home, I usually watch them in two or more sittings. It's not that I get bored or antsy, but I'm always thinking about other things I have to or want to do, or I'm getting too sleepy if it's close to bedtime. In movie theaters, it is partly because I hate sitting that long. I don't necessarily think that shorter movies result in shoddy jobs. It also depends on my interest in the subject matter or the actors. For example I'm not into Bond type movies. Yes, I totally agree about being able to watch series episodes on alternate venues. I have watched movies on Fire Kindle, for instance. And it's really true how our TV viewing has changed so much from when we were kids and beyond. As too how it gives us as individuals more choices as to our interests. I am nostalgic when households had only one TV and families would watch programs together. Your memory with your dad and Milton Berle is one great example (except for the scratches, of course). I loved watching The Honeymooners, The Ed Sullivan Show, other variety shows, and Saturday morning cartoons (such as Rocky and Bullwinkle) were so much better then now(no biases here, or course ). Now families seem to be more separate individuals than having a connected relationship with each other.
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Post by raybar on Feb 7, 2018 20:39:55 GMT -5
Just now, Wednesday afternoon, I saw episode 3.
I was taught in film school that a story should have a beginning, a middle, and an end. In that view, after 3 of 10 episodes, we should be moving into the middle part of the story. We are familiar with the setting, most of the important characters and locations have been introduced, and the fundamental conflicts that drive the action have been established. The forces of the establishment, represented by the Byrnes and Connor of the police, want to maintain the status quo in the face of pressures to change, represented by Roosevelt and Kreizler's group.
I cheated a little by looking at the cast list on imdb.com to see who might be the murderer. In any murder mystery series, the killer has to be in the last episode, and should be in several previous episodes, but not necessarily in all of them, and often not in the first few episodes. As chance would have it (this is not why I looked at it, I swear), the imdb listing indicates which episodes each character appears in, which reduces the suspect list to a manageable level. I have my suspicions, but insufficient evidence to make a prediction. Unless someone wants me to.
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Post by debutante on Feb 7, 2018 23:03:02 GMT -5
Lily,
I am definitely in until the end -- my husband and I are watching it together and since we're discussing it together, we will finish it up.
--Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 23:08:22 GMT -5
Just now, Wednesday afternoon, I saw episode 3. I was taught in film school that a story should have a beginning, a middle, and an end. In that view, after 3 of 10 episodes, we should be moving into the middle part of the story. We are familiar with the setting, most of the important characters and locations have been introduced, and the fundamental conflicts that drive the action have been established. The forces of the establishment, represented by the Byrnes and Connor of the police, want to maintain the status quo in the face of pressures to change, represented by Roosevelt and Kreizler's group. I cheated a little by looking at the cast list on imdb.com to see who might be the murderer. In any murder mystery series, the killer has to be in the last episode, and should be in several previous episodes, but not necessarily in all of them, and often not in the first few episodes. As chance would have it (this is not why I looked at it, I swear), the imdb listing indicates which episodes each character appears in, which reduces the suspect list to a manageable level. I have my suspicions, but insufficient evidence to make a prediction. Unless someone wants me to. I definitely don't want you to, Raybar.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 23:11:26 GMT -5
Lily, I am definitely in until the end -- my husband and I are watching it together and since we're discussing it together, we will finish it up. --Debutante Okay, good. Then I'll definitely watch the series. Joan is going to continue, as well. And Fred at least a few more. I'll catch up through Episode 3. I've already watched all of Episode 1. Oh, and it appears that Raybar is watching it, too.
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Post by raybar on Feb 7, 2018 23:49:17 GMT -5
I definitely don't want you to, Raybar. OK then. No predictions yet. I really don't want to say anything anyway, at least not this early in the series, because doing so could influence how people view the story. On a first viewing, people deserve to see a film through their own eyes, unbiased by what anyone else has said.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2018 23:55:53 GMT -5
I definitely don't want you to, Raybar. OK then. No predictions yet. I really don't want to say anything anyway, at least not this early in the series, because doing so could influence how people view the story. On a first viewing, people deserve to see a film through their own eyes, unbiased by what anyone else has said. No, I didn't mean it that way. I do want to hear through discussion what everyone thinks by watching. I just didn't want you to say what you're predicting by what you researched on IMDB. I want to hear what you think by your watching of the episodes.
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joan
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Post by joan on Feb 8, 2018 10:49:32 GMT -5
lily: "No, I didn't mean it that way. I do want to hear through discussion what everyone thinks by watching. I just didn't want you to say what you're predicting by what you researched on IMDB. I want to hear what you think by your watching of the episodes."
Right lily, NO Cheating! Shame raybar!
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Post by raybar on Feb 8, 2018 12:06:53 GMT -5
Cheating? What cheating? That was research.
Anyway, in response to Lily's request for what I think by watching the series - -
As I said above, after 3 episodes, we are (or should be) entering the "middle" of the story. The murder investigation should begin making real progress, but with false leads,"red herrings," innocent people being suspected - all the usual things to keep the audience interested without giving away too much too soon.
So far, no one stands out as a possible suspect, so everyone is suspect, to a greater or lesser degree, except for actual historical characters because, as far as is known, none of them committed a series of brutal murders - Roosevelt (who will become President in a few years), Byrnes (a real New York police detective who was forced out by Roosevelt in 1895), J.P. Morgan (who owned most of the world), Charles Delmonico (of Delmonico's Restaurant). We can also rule out any characters that appear in Caleb Carr's subsequent novels about Kriezler - - and it's not cheating to know that The Alienist is the first book in a series of novels.
The killings in The Alienist are not just murders. They are a psychotic ritual of some sort, and none of the characters we have met so far show any signs of being psychotic. I often suspect the police (Captain Connor in this series) or criminal/black market characters (like brothel owner Paul Kelley). But in this story, although they are certainly ready and willing to commit violent acts, it's about business and corruption and so on. It's not because they're crazy. So I think we can rule them all out, at least for now.
I don't think we have met the killer yet.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 13:17:03 GMT -5
Now I have to catch up before the next episode on Monday.
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Post by faskew on Feb 9, 2018 6:31:43 GMT -5
Lily - I often watch TV on my Kindle Fire. I can lie down, prop it on my chest, and away I go. I watch a lot of free stuff on Amazon Prime, and it has a feature called "X-Ray". You can see cast info, trivia, goofs and such with it. I'll be going along and see an actor that I sort of remember. Pause the show, open X-Ray, touch the actor's pic (X-Ray shows whoever is onscreen), and then read some bio stuff about that actor. Then I can go, "Ho, yeah, now I remember who that is." And go back to the show. I can also use X-Ray on my regular TV, but for some reason it's more fun on the Fire. LOL
Was watching the pilot of "Monk" the other day and discovered that his first assistant, Bitty Schram (Sharona), put herself through college on a tennis scholarship. Wow. And on my cell phone I can watch TV or movies and I have an app called Fan TV that lets me watch movie trailers of whatever is in theaters. I also have the free Kindle book-reading app on my phone, computer and Fire, so I have books wherever I go.
I'm such a nerd. 8-D
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 16:07:23 GMT -5
I think we knew that already. One reason at least I'm still here. I like watching stuff on my Fire Kindle at certain times. It has to be when I'm settled in for the night and not multi-tasking all day long. During that all day long, I have to have something on TV that doesn't need concentration, for instance, cable news while doing things inside and outside the house. The bad news for me is that I just can't seem to disconnect from TV or radio and so I watch something on Kindle at the same time as what's on TV, such as my favorite sitcoms. I'm working on that. Not easy. But at least working in the yard I've given up on having to listen to talk radio or anything else. I now go out there with naked ears. It's all to do with mindfulness, really. I'm trying to do that. Someday I'll be going through my day without TV or radio going at all. It will be really, really difficult.
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Post by faskew on Feb 9, 2018 17:24:42 GMT -5
Lily wrote: >Someday I'll be going through my day without TV or radio going at all.
No!!! Say it ain't so!!! What horrible thing in life have to done to deserve such a fate?!? 8-D
Oh, and I also like that I have my Kindle Fire auto-switch to red screen after 8 PM, so my bedtime reading on a blue screen won't keep me awake.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 18:14:57 GMT -5
Lily wrote: >Someday I'll be going through my day without TV or radio going at all. No!!! Say it ain't so!!! What horrible thing in life have to done to deserve such a fate?!? 8-D I know that, right! What was I even thinking. It's all just a confusing mess.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 22:29:58 GMT -5
Okay, now that we've covered that horrible scenario, after tomorrow's afternoon of a High School Anniversary luncheon, I will be catching up on The Alienist past episodes On Feb.1st I attended a retirees reunion from where I last worked that was organized by my boss of off and on for 30 years. I dreaded that one, but It turned out to be really nice and this next reunion should be nice, too, at least for a get together with the couple of my high school friends where we are still in touch and friends after these many years.
I'll be very glad that these two events will be over with. Just not my thing.
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Post by faskew on Feb 10, 2018 14:18:06 GMT -5
There were 32 people in my graduating high school class of 1965. Some of them are dead, not sure exactly how many. Lost track of most. Let's say there are 25 survivors. Out of that number, there are about 10 that'd I'd actually like to talk to. The other 15 could stay home as far as I'm concerned.
Never been to a high school reunion. They have to mix several years together to get enough people to pay for a venue. (Actually, for the 10-15 from my class that show up, they probably could just meet at someone's house.) My hometown is about 8 hours drive from where I live now. Probably longer, since I can't sit in a car more than a couple of hours without becoming uncomfortable, so I'd have to stop for a few minutes every two hours or so. Plus food eating time. Just not worth the effort. 8->
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joan
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Post by joan on Feb 10, 2018 16:41:54 GMT -5
Nope. Never been to a high school reunion. My high school didn't even have a senior prom, the admins cancelled it; afraid, if I recall, of someone smoking a joint.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2018 22:40:07 GMT -5
There were 32 people in my graduating high school class of 1965. Some of them are dead, not sure exactly how many. Lost track of most. Let's say there are 25 survivors. Out of that number, there are about 10 that'd I'd actually like to talk to. The other 15 could stay home as far as I'm concerned. Never been to a high school reunion. They have to mix several years together to get enough people to pay for a venue. (Actually, for the 10-15 from my class that show up, they probably could just meet at someone's house.) My hometown is about 8 hours drive from where I live now. Probably longer, since I can't sit in a car more than a couple of hours without becoming uncomfortable, so I'd have to stop for a few minutes every two hours or so. Plus food eating time. Just not worth the effort. 8-> I wouldn't drive 8 hours for a high school reunion. I didn't even want to go to this one. But it was nice. Two friends basically insisted I go, and I've turned down enough events already that I thought it was only fair I go to this one.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2018 22:41:00 GMT -5
Nope. Never been to a high school reunion. My high school didn't even have a senior prom, the admins cancelled it; afraid, if I recall, of someone smoking a joint. Was that because it was a tense time with the Vietnam protests and all that?
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joan
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Post by joan on Feb 11, 2018 6:51:36 GMT -5
Not so much at my school. It was overreaction on the part of the principal.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2018 20:12:13 GMT -5
Okay, I've caught up through episode 3. I'll watch tonight's episode tomorrow morning.
My biggest frustration is how dark most of the scenes are--especially the important ones, when people are running around shouting in the dark, I can't tell who is who.
So we know that the killer has some kind of something do to with his mouth and it's silver. And it changed from the time the boy saw it last. So what could it be? Could he have gotten braces (did they have braces back then?) or had his front teeth get plated with silver?
And apparently it's someone who has the keys to many of the buildings--at least the buildings that he frequents. Or he's part bat and can fly in and out of windows at a height. Or could it be that he carries types of nylon ropes with him to get out of rooms by climbing out the windows with him and his victim. Did you notice what a strange thick finger he had? What's that about? And is the something in his mouth something that enables him to hang on something with his teeth?
So far, my only suspect is that guy that was with the mayor--I think he's the retired commissioner that Roosevelt took over from? He seems to not be able to talk very well and he sipped liquid from a straw. He's older and from that view of the face of the apparent killer, I thought I saw a white hair or two in the eyebrows, so that could be him.
And there is tension between the artist and doctor regarding Sara, but more from the artist. I think Sara is more inclined toward the doctor. I don't think she likes the artist very much. The artist has his own problems. He says he knows her from her being a young age, and I guess he knew her father, who supposedly committed suicide. Hmm....something to think about. Was he possibly involved in this? Had the artist been exploited in some way by her father or some other man? I don't think he's the killer though. At least not yet.
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Post by faskew on Feb 13, 2018 8:42:32 GMT -5
>My biggest frustration is how dark most of the scenes are ---Indeed. I think it's an artistic effort to create "mood". Bad choice, especially since there are so many interesting old buildings, costumes, etc., to see in each scene. Or there would be, if we could only see them.
I didn't see who dropped the "thing on the floor". I didn't see what it was when the Big Bad found it. It wasn't until they showed the Big Bad thumbing through it much later that I realized it was the artist's sketchbook. And even then I couldn't see the sketches very well. If it was supposed to be an important plot element, it should have been easier to see. (Like almost everything else in the show. Grrr.)
As a child, I actually lived a couple of years in a one-room, abandoned trailer house with no light except a single kerosene lamp. It was not as dark as rooms in this show that have dozens of gas lamps and candles.
Like I said before, as the artist tries to become romantically involved with Sarah Howard, all I can think of is the many sexually transmitted diseases that he almost certainly acquired when he was raped by the boy prostitutes. I want to scream, "Don't let him touch you! He is walking death!" Or some such. Maybe it's because I've read several books about the "good old days", when most diseases were one step short of magic and there were almost no cures for anything. Even sharing a drink from the same glass might give you incurable TB. Sex with prostitutes was a sure way to die. 8-<
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Post by raybar on Feb 13, 2018 11:02:00 GMT -5
Re: John Moore's sketchbook Episode 3 - - - We do not see John loose or drop the sketchbook. It is just shown on the floor. - We do not know who picked it up. Episode 4 - - - The sketchbook is turned over to Roosevelt by Captain Connor while Sara is present. - No indication is given that anything was taken out of the sketchbook before Connor gives it to Roosevelt, but we don't know if it was returned complete. - Connor and Byrnes and all the police are outside the building when it is picked up, so we don't know who found it or how it came to Connor. - We also don't know who has seen it in addition to the finder and Connor. It's a good bet that Byrnes has seen it, and perhaps instructed Connor to return it.
This detail may have no importance other than indicating that the "establishment" forces are now certain that John Moore, and therefore Kreizler, are investigating the case.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2018 13:56:23 GMT -5
Does anyone have any thoughts about "Willem" the son of rich parents who is known to frequent the boy "whorehouse" and parents were told about another incident and warned them to keep the son away from that place. Did the authorities already believe that he was the killer?
And also, they already seemed to know about Moore and Kriezler investigating because the same man that visited the parents said that there were "outsiders" already involved with the investigation. After all, the artist was there at the death on the bridge. So, of course, it was already known. Or not?
Also, what about that guy that showed up smiling with his discolored teeth? Could that have been the son, the killer, or a red herring?
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