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Post by debutante on Apr 22, 2014 0:31:56 GMT -5
Dear Raybar:
Did you look for God with preconceived expectations of what He would be?
In my experience, God tends to show up in His time, His way, and for His purposes. These might not necessarily mesh with what someone expects.
As a matter of fact, I've been having this ongoing conversation with God the past couple of nights. I'll tell you what it is about, so you'll have an idea how I stand on this matter.
I was explaining to God how surprised I am lately at the state of my life. I am very happy -- despite all the really bad things that happened to me throughout the course of my life (and believe me, I've had more than my fair share of bad things). Somehow, everything I thought was a "disaster" came to be all right in the end. I got through the worst part and never expected to be happy. But I am; very much so.
When I was younger, I thought because I didn't get things "my way" -- God either had it in for me (for some reason I didn't understand), or that He didn't have any active involvement in my life.
I was always (when a young girl) trying to manipulate things to fall into what *I* wanted to happen, what *I* thought was best, so that *my* outcome would be what *I* wanted. Well, I didn't get what *I* wanted...but I've come to suspect that what I ended up with is far better than anything *I* could have arranged myself. So it now seems that God knew what was better for me than *I* did. And I told Him this was so.
From there, I moved to a discussion of Jesus. I was telling God that it's difficult to *know* Jesus other than someone else's writings and I asked Him if it was at all possible to let me *feel* what Jesus is like so that I would *know* personally. (If you're going to ask for something -- might as well shoot for the best).
What happened was this -- I felt a presence manifest immediately after my request. It was NOT what I expected. The presence had a much higher...rate (I guess that would be the proper word) than I am. If I put it in terms of something like metabolism -- the pulse rate was far quicker (easily triple mine, if not infinitely more) to the point that as this presence began to embrace me -- I was seriously afraid that my rate would try to match this presence and I'd end up departing this mortal coil. So I thanked God for the experience and said that it might be a bit too much for me. But this presence in spite of this high pulsing was very calm and centered.
From there -- I decided to stick my nose in places it obviously didn't belong -- as the word "STOP" appeared the moment I tried. This I won't tell you about -- suffice it to say that I was prying into something that really wasn't my business. Well-intentioned or not, it became clear that God wants us to respect other people's privacy.
From here, I asked some conformation that all I had just experienced wasn't my "imagination". I swear to you -- all the lights in the room flashed on at that exact moment. It was around 2:00 AM....
Now...see, this is NOT a classic description of what you'd expect from God. Nevertheless, I received what I asked for, but *I* didn't get to choose the form.
I know you won't believe me Raybar -- but that's what happened.
I've learned it's best not to approach God with expectations that *your* way is the way it's going to be.
--Debutante
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Apr 22, 2014 1:20:17 GMT -5
Yes. And the people who cite great views etc as proof of the existence of God overlook the fact that there are just as many ugly and unpleasant places. Go to Syria, where there are lines THOUSANDS of people long, queuing for food handouts to feed their starving kids. And where was God when people were being beaten, starved and gassed in Auschwitz?
It's very annoying when people ignore what you're telling them and keep insisting on attributing reasons and motives to you that have no basis in fact. How could I believe that God owes anyone a "command performance" when I don't believe that God exists? There is no God. That's what I believe. I'm as sure of that as it is possible for a human being to be sure about anything. So why would I "expect" anything from an entity that is a figment of your - and other people's - imagination?
No, we won't find out. When you're dead, your dead. But I agree with the first part of your statement. Jesus certainly existed. And evidently he was a persuasive and charismatic figure. But there have been numerous gurus, mahatmas and avatars throughout history. There are at least a hundred "operating" in India at any given moment. They all have followings. They all - according to their followers - perform miracles. And they are all - again according to their followers - in possession some important universal truth.
So yes, I believe that Jesus was a real historical figure. I can say with certainty that he didn't do many of the things attributed to him because these same things have been attributed to other messiahs before and after him. Things like walking on water, feeding the multitude etc are recurring themes in religious mythology.
And YES - the main thing - I AGREE that he believed he was the son of God. Most messiahs do believe in their own divinity.
When I was in my teens I spent some time in Oxford as the guest of a woman by the name of Maud Kennedy, in Cambridge (coincidentally, Judy's son also knew Maud, and through him I was able to get in touch with her daughter several years ago. I also met Pete Townshend and other members of The Who there, but that's another story...). Maud was involved in the running of the Meher Baba organization, and through her I got to know all about this modern day avatar (God in human form). It was he who coined the phrase "Don't Worry. Be happy". I read all his writings, studied the philosophy - basically Bahai/Sufism/Indian mysticism - which was all very inspiring and uplifting. From 1925 to the day he died in 1969, Meher Baba maintained silence (as a penance), and communicated with the aid of an alphabet board. He had millions of followers around the world (still has). So I got to see the dynamics of a messianic movement from the inside.
But here's the thing. Meher Baba promised his followers that one day he would break his silence, and when he did they would know "that it was the True Word you have always been longing to hear". But he never did break his silence. He died without saying anything. You would think, then, that his followers and disciples would be disappointed and disillusioned, and that they would realize that he wasn't a god after all. But no. And this is my point: they immediately switched from believing that he had intended to literally break his silence to believing that this was to be understood as a metaphor. In other words they adapted in order to be able to keep believing that he was the messiah. And this, I believe, is exactly what happened with Christianity 2,000 years ago when Jesus FAILED to perform his big miracle - Meher Baba's equivalent of breaking his silence. I'm talking about rising from the dead.
What I think is that Jesus believed himself to be a messiah - just as Meher Baba did. At school in Catholic Ireland we were force-fed the New Testament. Most of it sounded bogus to me, but one section always struck me as having a ring of truth to it. Matthew, ch27, 45-47 & Mark 15:34, where Jesus is on the cross and he cries out in a loud voice: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" And from the context of the following passages, it is clear that the crowd understand him to be asking for help from Elijah. I believe this is an accurate account; and I believe it was the moment Jesus realized that he wasn't going to be rescued. Theologians offer all kinds of convoluted interpretations to account for this statement - just as Meher Baba's followers offer all kinds of metaphysical explanations to account for his failure to break his silence - but I think Jesus believed himself to be the son of God, and expected to be rescued. He was genuine in the sense of being well-intentioned, but like all would-be messiahs before and after him, he was self-deluded. I think it's as simple as that.
There was no resurrection, of course. If you read the description of the supposed resurrection, you will see that it is based on accounts of anonymous people who thought they saw Jesus weeks and months after he was crucified (think of the number of times missing and wanted people are supposedly spotted by members of the public). But here's the clincher: there are no eye witness accounts of a resurrection in the New Testament. There are detailed accounts of Jesus' arrest, trial, crucifixion and burial, but no description of his alleged resurrection. We are told only that the tomb was found empty. Why are there no accounts of his rising from the dead? Because it never happened. He "appeared" to Mary Magdalene, but she didn't recognize him. Why not? She'd known him all her life. He later supposedly appeared to two disciples who talked with him for hours "without knowing who he was". And so on. The person who wrote most about Jesus' resurrection was the apostle Paul, who wasn't present at the crucifixion and in fact had never met Jesus or any of the 12 apostles.
Centuries later, the story was stitched together, borrowing elements from other religious traditions. Removing the bits that didn't conform to the myth. Who knows how much of the New Testament is accurate. Probably very little. Certainly not the resurrection, and that's really the only part that matters. Because without the resurrection, all you have is a lifestyle philosophy based around the teachings of a self-deluded religious fanatic.
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Post by faskew on Apr 22, 2014 8:10:51 GMT -5
Tricia wrote: >I believe Jesus was a person. I believe at the very worst case, that if he really wasn't the son of God that he really did believe he was..
From my studies, it seems clear to me that, yes, there almost certainly was such a man. He and his followers were caught up in an end-time belief that was popular among Jews from about 200 BCE until many years after the revolt against Rome. The belief was that God was going to overthrow Rome and reinstate the Garden of Eden on earth. Real Soon Now. There would be 12 kings from the 12 tribes of Israel set to rule over mankind, including all the dead, who would all be resurrected (some for punishment). There would also be an overall Jewish king who ruled over the 12 world kings. It's almost certain that Jesus believed that he was going to be that king-of-kings, in English AKA "the Messiah", which is why the NT puts so much emphasis on Jesus being a descendant of the royal house of David. Messiah simply means, the anointed one, referring to aromatic oils used during the coronation of Jewish kings. ALL Jewish kings were Messiahs, and even Cyrus the Great, a Persian king, was given that title in the OT. I think that Jesus believed he was the legitimate heir to the Jewish crown.
Jesus and his followers believed that his execution by Rome would be the trigger that set off God's intervention and establishment of a new heaven on earth. The NT quotes both Jesus and Paul as announcing that this event would happen during the lifetime of those who were hearing them preach that day, although both quotes were written 40-70 years after the Crucifixion. Jesus was executed for claiming to be the true king of the Jews, which Rome regarded as treason. Then his followers sat back to wait for the end of the world.
After a couple of generations had passed and there was no heaven on earth, Christianity mutated. This greatly due to the influx of non-Jewish believers. Jesus became the son of God, or even God himself, not merely the king of the Jews. Greeks and Greek-educated Romans (like Paul) slowly created a new religion that was much more Greek that the original and it was rejected by the first disciples and relatives of Jesus as not being Jewish. But the failed Jewish rebellion and destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem (70 CE) cleared the path for the Greek version of Christianity to spread throughout the Roman empire. What began as a down-to-earth Jewish sect espousing Jewish beliefs in the end of time became a Greek mystery religion, full of afterlife promises, spiritual unknowns and internal contradictions as it tried to merge the two different belief systems.
Of course, it was around 300 CE when Christianity became the state religion of Rome, and then things really went to hell. 8->
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Post by raybar on Apr 22, 2014 9:00:39 GMT -5
Thanks to Zak and Fred for their detailed messages -- more than I would have time for.
Debutante -- I had my conversations with god years ago, but they were entirely one sided. I talked - you could call it prayer - no one answered. I was hoping and asking for just a tiny hint of a reply. A quite "hello" would have been enough. But there was none. No words, no sense of presence, nothing.
Lily -- I am aware that "It isn't called faith for no reason," and I wouldn't expect to see god sitting around watching the sunset with me. But faith needs to be based on something. I would need a reason to make a "leap of faith," and I have none.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 10:35:25 GMT -5
Well, I hope you guys had a lot of fun and that it was worth it. Happy nothing! You really think you're posting some new information that we haven't heard of ever before? This isn't a Christian site that you're trolling. We happen to be regular members who post and contribute and there's no excuse for your rudeness. You make it seem there are so many members here and it's just fine to diss us and never mind there'll be many more to come and participate in our place. Well, good for you.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 11:16:38 GMT -5
Here's an atheist with class from today's Letters to the Editor page.
Are you all so bereft of human feelings that you have to turn a simple friendly greeting into a religious debate? You really think Debutante was wanting to thumb her nose at you by writing "Happy Easter" and so you had to fight back to preserve your shaky dignities? It appears so.
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Post by faskew on Apr 22, 2014 11:46:56 GMT -5
I certainly did not intend any rudeness. Just happened upon a discussion of the origins of Easter. I've always been interested in the history of Christianity and where all the various bits came from and like to discuss such things. I have no particular interest in Easter as a holiday, one way or the other. It seems to be on the fast track to become another secular holiday, like Christmas. Certainly the big corporations are mostly interested in the 16 billion or so spent for Easter in the US (candy, cards, clothing, religious items, etc.). 8->
When people greet me with have a Merry Xmas, have a Happy Easter, have a swell St. Swithin's Day, have an ultimate Utsava Day, or whatever, I just say, "You, too", and carry on, perfectly content so long as no expects me to actually DO anything in connection with their special day. An evangelical nephew was trying to get everyone he knows to go to his church on Sunday. That's where I draw the line in the spiritual sand. Spent WAY too much time in such dens of iniquity as a child. LOL.
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Post by debutante on Apr 22, 2014 11:47:00 GMT -5
Dear Zak: 1. What makes you think God isn’t there when bad things happen? Or that God is obligated to handle a situation in the way you think He should? A lot of people have a lot of opinions on a lot of things. Does that mean God should let everyone have it “their way”? It seems you think God is equivalent to Burger King (in addition to Shamu). I don’t know what God’s purpose in allowing evil is – but I assure you He has one. And knowing God’s purpose is none of my business. As far as you go – we’re back to the attitude of the Russian psychic in kingdom of the Crystal skull. Why do you have to know everything? Why do you think God would be obligated to tell you anything at all? Put this in perspective. Are you that "important" that God must explain Himself to you? 2. There’s some double-speak going on here. On one hand, you claim there is no proof for God. On another, you say that proof is only proof if it’s science. And in addition, you claim that scientific proof has to be under specific conditions. In order for the conditions of proof you’d need to believe in God to be satisfied, God would have to be Shamu. That’s not going to happen. He is God – not a performing whale to do things at your bidding. So yes, it would be a “command performance” demand. More than a tad of hubris, to expect this! 3. “When you’re dead, you’re dead,” is the world according to Zak. That’s just your opinion. I’ve seen and heard the dead my entire life. So, the world according to Debutante, is that “Death is a change of address.” I don’t mind that you hold your opinion – that’s your right to believe as you will. What I do mind is your attempt to force your opinion upon others as the absolute truth. The problem is that people (who have lost loved ones) take comfort in the knowledge that they will see them again. I ask you – why do you wish to take that comfort away from people? I am not afraid of death. I may be the only person you know who isn’t because I know without a doubt that it’s a change of address. But most people aren’t that lucky. I wonder why you feel this driving need to “force” people to become unhappy because you THINK you are correct. If I were you, I’d do some very serious soul searching and take a good look at your motivation. Not to be rude, but hasn’t anyone ever pointed out to you that such a thing is cruel? And I do not for one moment believe that your claimed motivation as in – “they are being taken advantage of by cold readers” is the truth. I don’t do readings for other people. So there is nobody to “cold read” and no money exchanging hands. And I’m telling you that death is a change of address. Deal with it. You’re supposedly psychic – but you’re really off on this one. 3. Your experiences with Meher Baba, although admittedly very interesting, tells you a lot about Meher Baba. I don’t believe you can extrapolate this experience to any other figure except in the sense that YOU THINK there are similarities. Thinking someone’s behavior might be like someone else’s does not necessarily mean that it actually is like someone else. 4. I don’t necessarily agree with your interpretation of Jesus’ statement on the cross. It seems you’ve forgotten what he said in the Garden of Gethsemane. I’m not that big on Bible reading, so I had to look the passage up (along with commentary) – but here’s what I found: In Luke 22:41-42, we see outlined the prayer of consecration and dedication: "And He [Jesus] was withdrawn from them [Peter, James and John] about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and prayed, saying, 'Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done.'" He was praying, in effect, "If there is any other way to do this, let's do it that way." But the key for Jesus, and for us, is, "Nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." I rather think you’ve cherry picked here. The two statements taken together indicate a very different interpretation than the one you’ve chosen to give. 5. Now about that “Resurrection” thing -- being that I am not God, I have no idea what process would be utilized to resurrect a person in the first place. Since the process by which something like that could occur would be “unknown” how could anyone predict what a resurrected individual would look like? Since there doesn’t seem to be much of a description of His post resurrection appearance, other than that He looked “different” – well, why would that surprise you? Someone dies and then comes back – hell, I’d be surprised if He looked exactly the same after all that. Now, do I believe a historical Jesus existed? Yes. Do I believe He was the Son of God? Well, let’s just say I certainly wouldn’t mess with Him, particularly after the other night. He has an extremely powerful presence. All this being said Zak, I am perfectly content to let you go on being an atheist and continuing on your quest to "know everything". And I fully intend to continue to believe in God -- because when I talk to Him -- He answers. --Debutante
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Post by debutante on Apr 22, 2014 11:50:14 GMT -5
Hi Fred:
I've never heard anything about the 12 Kings thing before and it's quite interesting. I'm not altogether sure where it fits into things, but I will take your word that this information is out there somewhere. Do you recall where you read it?
--Debutante
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Post by debutante on Apr 22, 2014 11:56:49 GMT -5
Dear Raybar:
Yours is the hardest post to answer because I believe you when you said that you sincerely tried to find God.
I wish I could tell you that there was some kind of formula to guarantee success -- but truthfully, I've never noticed (perhaps I wasn't looking) any pattern in terms of what questions will get answers and which ones won't.
There are times when God is very accessible to me and other times not so much.
But I promise you that there really is a God. I don't think He's quite what people think -- but I know He's real. And I am 100% positive that He loves atheists as much as He loves believers.
So trust me on this -- you're covered.
--Debutante
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Post by debutante on Apr 22, 2014 11:59:01 GMT -5
Dear Lily:
Well, I wished the believers a Happy Easter. And the skeptics a Happy Spring. So having covered both points of view -- I don't feel did anything provocative.
It's just a friendly discussion -- and by now all of us are well aware that none of us are going to change our minds!
Love,
Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 12:19:51 GMT -5
I know you mean that, Deb. But I have a differing opinion. To me all those religious debate posts were demeaning and meant to be that way. Pat on the heads and edification for stupid deluded "believers", from the educated, informed, enlightened atheists.
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Post by debutante on Apr 22, 2014 12:30:30 GMT -5
Dear Lily:
I'm not going to say you shouldn't feel the way you feel because you have a right to your feelings.
But here's my take on it: I know what I know. And I do know that God has a purpose for atheists being atheists. Maybe it's their job to make our faith stronger. In that case, I thank them.
We're not stupid -- we just have access to some experiences that they can't seem to connect to -- but that doesn't make them bad people. Any more than it makes us "better" because we can connect and they apparently can't.
I do know this -- anger isn't the way God would want us to react. He loves the atheists because they belong to Him too.
--Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 12:53:35 GMT -5
If you start singing "Love is the Answer" I'm going to lose my breakfast.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Apr 22, 2014 13:02:11 GMT -5
Greedy bastard, isn't he?
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Post by debutante on Apr 22, 2014 13:05:18 GMT -5
Dear Zak:
I told you once before, He loves you....and He'll get you in the end. Eternity is on his side, you know...
--Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 13:16:00 GMT -5
Another one? And this time it's the Beatles. Lol
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Apr 22, 2014 13:24:39 GMT -5
I just think it's very sad and regrettable that so many fully-grown adult human beings still feel the need to invent imaginary friends and an imaginary afterlife to avoid facing the reality that we are on our own on this spinning ball of mud, and we only have one life. This is "as good as it gets", and any time you spend talking to fictional entities is time wasted. Unless you understand that you are talking to yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 13:41:44 GMT -5
I just think it's very sad and regrettable that so many fully-grown adult human beings still feel the need to invent imaginary friends and an imaginary afterlife to avoid facing the reality that we are on our own on this spinning ball of mud, and we only have one life. This is "as good as it gets", and any time you spend talking to fictional entities is time wasted. Unless you understand that you are talking to yourself. I lost time reading your post just now. You have the biggest insufferable ego. And I'm not going to waste any more of my time.
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Post by raybar on Apr 22, 2014 13:47:45 GMT -5
Well, I hope you guys had a lot of fun and that it was worth it. Happy nothing! You really think you're posting some new information that we haven't heard of ever before? This isn't a Christian site that you're trolling. We happen to be regular members who post and contribute and there's no excuse for your rudeness. You make it seem there are so many members here and it's just fine to diss us and never mind there'll be many more to come and participate in our place. Well, good for you. If anything I said offended you, I apologize. No rudeness or "trolling" or "dissing" was intended.
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Post by raybar on Apr 22, 2014 13:50:03 GMT -5
I know you mean that, Deb. But I have a differing opinion. To me all those religious debate posts were demeaning and meant to be that way. Pat on the heads and edification for stupid deluded "believers", from the educated, informed, enlightened atheists. If this was about me, you are mistaken.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 13:51:47 GMT -5
Well, I hope you guys had a lot of fun and that it was worth it. Happy nothing! You really think you're posting some new information that we haven't heard of ever before? This isn't a Christian site that you're trolling. We happen to be regular members who post and contribute and there's no excuse for your rudeness. You make it seem there are so many members here and it's just fine to diss us and never mind there'll be many more to come and participate in our place. Well, good for you. If anything I said offended you, I apologize. No rudeness or "trolling" or "dissing" was intended. Thank you, Raybar. I really appreciate that. I have absolutely no problem with anyone being an atheist. I wouldn't be here otherwise. And I wouldn't even want to try to convert anyone. Diversity is what makes our world and lives interesting. And, besides, it's none of my business.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 13:52:16 GMT -5
I know you mean that, Deb. But I have a differing opinion. To me all those religious debate posts were demeaning and meant to be that way. Pat on the heads and edification for stupid deluded "believers", from the educated, informed, enlightened atheists. If this was about me, you are mistaken. I accept that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 13:53:24 GMT -5
I certainly did not intend any rudeness. Just happened upon a discussion of the origins of Easter. I've always been interested in the history of Christianity and where all the various bits came from and like to discuss such things. I have no particular interest in Easter as a holiday, one way or the other. It seems to be on the fast track to become another secular holiday, like Christmas. Certainly the big corporations are mostly interested in the 16 billion or so spent for Easter in the US (candy, cards, clothing, religious items, etc.). 8-> When people greet me with have a Merry Xmas, have a Happy Easter, have a swell St. Swithin's Day, have an ultimate Utsava Day, or whatever, I just say, "You, too", and carry on, perfectly content so long as no expects me to actually DO anything in connection with their special day. An evangelical nephew was trying to get everyone he knows to go to his church on Sunday. That's where I draw the line in the spiritual sand. Spent WAY too much time in such dens of iniquity as a child. LOL. I accept that your intention was not to be rude, Fred.
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Post by debutante on Apr 22, 2014 13:54:33 GMT -5
Dear Lily:
Perfectly understandable. Can you imagine how threatening it must be for a psychic to become aware of limitations? If I bother him, my mother's abilities would have had him in tears.
--Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 13:56:40 GMT -5
Dear Lily: Perfectly understandable. Can you imagine how threatening it must be for a psychic to become aware of limitations? If I bother him, my mother's abilities would have had him in tears. --Debutante We differ in that I don't care what kind of limitations or feeling threatened or whatever a person whose jollies include attacking people who never attacked him or his beliefs. Period.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Apr 22, 2014 14:05:53 GMT -5
So you guys feel "threatened" and "attacked" by anyone who doesn't share your belief in God (ie, atheists)? Again, then, why on earth are you on a forum for critical thinking and skepticism? If you can't take the heat... etc.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 14:12:49 GMT -5
So you guys feel "threatened" and "attacked" by anyone who doesn't share your belief in God (ie, atheists)? Again, then, why on earth are you on a forum for critical thinking and skepticism? If you can't take the heat... etc. You have it the wrong way around. You're the one who felt threatened by "Happy Easter". Small mind, small world where you have to be right or just can't live with yourself. If you didn't notice, this isn't exactly the same FACTS anymore. If it wasn't for the folks here you think of as fools, it would have shrunk way more than it has.
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Post by debutante on Apr 22, 2014 14:13:47 GMT -5
Dear Lily:
I wouldn't want this to ruin your day. Be happy. If there's one thing I learned in the course of my life, it's how valuable happiness is and how little of it people allow us to keep.
So ask yourself, why would Zak want other people to be less happy?
--Debutante
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 14:15:37 GMT -5
I know you mean well, Deb, But, oh please.
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