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Post by Roger (over and out) on Dec 19, 2013 22:07:24 GMT -5
The advances being made in this field have largely gone under the radar of the media. Probably because for decades various "anti ageing" products were touted which turned out to be scams. Also, I think there has always been a kind of fatal acceptance that the ageing process was too big and fundamental a challenge to be tackled. We still don't have a cure for the common cold. And there's also the idea that "nature" would never allow such a thing to happen because it would "mess up everything". But the fact is that in recent years there have been significant breakthroughs in stopping and now reversing the ageing process in (mainly) mice. I myself have always felt that this - stopping the ageing process - was not only do-able, but would turn out to be much easier than anyone imagined. I'm not suggesting that it will be possible to stop or reverse ageing in humans anytime soon - too late for most of us here! - but I think there will probably be "age control", or substantially extended lifespan, in humans within the next 50 years or so, and certainly in this century. The implications of being able to extend human lifespan to hundreds of years - or even indefinitely - would, of course, be enormous. www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/20/anti-ageing-human-trials
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Post by debutante on Dec 19, 2013 22:38:39 GMT -5
Dear Zak:
But would we want that?
The older I get, the more I see death as being neutral. When the death involves a loved one; we deem it tragic. But without death, we'd still be dealing with historical figures, some of whom, were frankly evil.
As it is the economy is causing people to postpone retirement, thus making it more difficult for the young to find jobs.
I think age-reversing would be beneficial only in terms of making someone's measured years more comfortable (no arthritis, for example). But to halt death is another issue altogether.
I am not too afraid to die (most people with mediumistic abilities aren't). I don't like pain particularly, so any fear of death is more related to that. And since I know there is life after death, I don't see the point of prolonging this life beyond a certain point.
You'd have to give up those who contribute to a better society -- but you'd get rid of the serial killers as well.
--Debutante
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Dec 19, 2013 23:37:53 GMT -5
Well, here's the thing. Whenever this subject is discussed, somebody always says: "But why would we want to live longer? Death is natural."
And yet. I worked in hospices for the terminally ill, and I never encountered a single patient who didn't want to live longer, and who wouldn't have given their right arm for the chance of a cure. Yes, patients who were in great pain, or who had been suffering for a long time, were often resigned to death, but only because they knew they had no other option, and that to live longer meant to prolong their suffering. But if you took away the pain and depression that accompanied their illness, would they still be resigned to death? I really don't think so.
And look at the lengths - and the expense - that healthy people go to in an effort to look and feel younger. Cosmetic surgery, make-up, visits to the gym, nutritional supplements, diets, etc. People spend billions of dollars every year in an attempt to retain or recover their youth. Are you telling me that if there was a pill available that could take twenty, thirty, forty years off their biological age they wouldn't take it?
Whether it would be a good thing or not is a different question. But I think the reality is that most people would grasp at any chance to stay youthful longer and extend their life span.
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Post by debutante on Dec 19, 2013 23:50:22 GMT -5
Dear Zak:
Agreed, a lot of people would do that. But can you imagine the resulting chaos? Such a thing would probably be expensive -- thus available only to the wealthy. So, only they could afford immortality.
Those with greater life spans would have greater opportunity to hoard resources. This would create even more poverty and resentment.
Physical space -- less dead people means less space -- massive overcrowding. People forbidden to have children so that others can live forever?
Imagine having a mother-in-law who lived forever... LOL!
No... I think death is necessary. Painful, but cleansing.
--Debutante
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Dec 20, 2013 0:35:33 GMT -5
"No... I think death is necessary. Painful, but cleansing."
I think that's just your morality kicking in.
But yes, I think that - in the beginning at least - anti-ageing treatments would be expensive and the prerogative of the very rich only. But things that are super-expensive when they first become available usually eventually become cheap enough for everyone to afford. Even space travel is becoming more affordable.
I don't buy the overcrowding argument. It would take hundreds or even thousands of years for overcrowding to reach a critical level (there's enough space in the Grand Canyon to hold the entire population of the world, with each person having enough room to swing a cat), and by then we should have colonized the Moon, Mars, space stations etc.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Dec 20, 2013 8:38:01 GMT -5
PS - Let's get to the crux of it: If a pill went on sale tomorrow that you could take and become a 20-year-old again, would you take it?
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jem
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Post by jem on Dec 20, 2013 8:50:11 GMT -5
I doubt if the ageing process can be reversed, but I do believe that life can continue for a longer length of time.
The key to that would be transplants and prosthetics..
There are so many organs and body parts that can now be transplanted and also limbs that can be replaced with prostthetics.
Maybe even brain transplants? Much like a car, it's life can continue until a better model is preferred, and in that case we'd have to drop the old model for a new replacement.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Dec 20, 2013 9:02:15 GMT -5
No, Jem, the ageing process definitely can and has been reversed in laboratory animals, and by researchers in at least three separate laboratories. There's no question that it can be done. It's already a reality, at least for lab mice. Read the article.
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jem
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Post by jem on Dec 20, 2013 9:26:11 GMT -5
Studying ageing in mice is fine, but here's a thought, why not study our humans who live into their 90's and 100's.
Just Googled "telomeres". Might shed some more light on this fascinating subject.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Dec 20, 2013 9:56:56 GMT -5
Yes, I'm already familiar with telomeres, but - I'll ask you the same question I asked Deb - would you avail of age-reversing technology if it became available to humans tomorrow? If you could take a pill that would make you 20 years old biologically, would you take it?
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jem
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Post by jem on Dec 20, 2013 10:33:00 GMT -5
Would I take an age-reversing pill if it was available?
Would have to do a great deal of research on side-effects, cost, etc.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Dec 20, 2013 10:39:05 GMT -5
If there were no dangerous side-effects and you could afford it, would you take it?
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jem
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Post by jem on Dec 20, 2013 12:39:24 GMT -5
It still would depend. Would it mean 20 more years as I am now, or would I get back my body the way it was at 40 but still keep the wisdom that I accumulated over those years since I was 40?
I wouldn't mind having the body that I had at 40 and still have all that I've learned since. Wow! What fun that would be.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Dec 20, 2013 13:39:25 GMT -5
The technique wouldn't do anything to your mind, as far as I'm aware. It just reverses the age of the body. So I presume from your answer that if you could take a pill that would give you the body you had when you were in your 20s you'd take it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 14:34:36 GMT -5
I would, if just to see the look on the driver's face when I show him my senior citizen's bus pass.
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jem
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Post by jem on Dec 20, 2013 15:42:24 GMT -5
Still not sure if I would take that pill. In this case, I'm the skeptic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2013 15:48:32 GMT -5
Still not sure if I would take that pill. In this case, I'm the skeptic. No problem. More for the rest of us.
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jem
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Post by jem on Dec 20, 2013 16:22:07 GMT -5
Right!
Tampering with nature is very rarely in our best interest. And that goes for pills and most drugs. As for myself, I avoid all drugs and supplements. The only pill I take is one to thin my blood. It seems that I have a VERY rare condition where my bone marrow produces too much blood. So, every so often I have to go for a phlebotomy, or where a pound of blood is taken. No, unfortunately at this time it can't be donated....but except for that, don't want to fix what ain't broke. Stick with what's natural.
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joan
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Post by joan on Dec 20, 2013 16:49:58 GMT -5
PS - Let's get to the crux of it: If a pill went on sale tomorrow that you could take and become a 20-year-old again, would you take it? Yes.
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jem
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Post by jem on Dec 20, 2013 17:15:24 GMT -5
Joan - What if all that you learned since you were twenty, had to be voided? Don't all those years of learning account for anything?
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Post by debutante on Dec 20, 2013 17:17:19 GMT -5
PS - Let's get to the crux of it: If a pill went on sale tomorrow that you could take and become a 20-year-old again, would you take it? Dear Zak: Truthfully? No. I remember having a conversation with my grandmother when she was in her 80's. She told me she was looking forward to death. I was in my early 20's at the time and I was horrified that she didn't think life was worth living. Now that I'm getting on in years -- I can see her point in a way I didn't then. She said that everyone she loved had already died. She said that she knew her family felt burdened by her. She said the world had "moved on" from the value system of her youth and she didn't like the changes. I imagine a pill could only (at present) address the second issue in terms of health and increased independence.. But a pill wouldn't help replace those already gone (making life not as attractive to their loved ones). And also, the changes she disliked wouldn't go away. I will add another "reason" to hers. For me "autism" will end when I die. My son's care will pass to my other designated people -- but I will be at peace. So no -- I don't want to live forever. --Debutante
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joan
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Post by joan on Dec 20, 2013 17:48:21 GMT -5
Joan - What if all that you learned since you were twenty, had to be voided? Don't all those years of learning account for anything? I'd still do it again, but I thought Zak meant one would be 20 taking their life with them. But even if I had to make the same mistakes again & do the suffering again, Yes, I would. However, it wouldn't be the same life because major events that frustrated my youth would now be in history. If I took that pill & am 20 in 2014, my life would be radically different than being 20 in the late 60's. The times I lived in shaped me, and not always to my benefit. One thing young people don't realize is how very beautiful they are, even if they themselves consider themselves to be unattractive. You'll never be as beautiful as you are in your twenties, the skin, the hair, the grace of movement, even if you don't think so at the time. I'm so glad you're back jem!!! Missed you!!!
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Dec 20, 2013 18:12:23 GMT -5
Just to be clear, what scientists have successfully managed to do is reverse the ageing process in mice. In other words, take "elderly" mice and rejuvenate them. Thus, mice that were the equivalent of 60 human years were rejuvenated - in a very short time - to the equivalent of 20 human years. The rejuvenation is physical and biological, so if it worked on humans a 60-year-old would develop all the physical and biological attributes of a 20-year-old (in other words their body would undergo age reversal). Their mind, memories etc wouldn't be affected.
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jem
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Post by jem on Dec 20, 2013 19:22:08 GMT -5
I'd like to see it when there's an actual person involved. Right now it's all theory. And in theory while it might work, in reality it might not. BTW, what ever happened to Dolly the sheep that was cloned? As I understand it, those "telomeres" were too short.
Another thought, seems rather strange to have a 60 years mind in a 20 year old body. Besides, Lily, confusing the bus driver with a senior citizen's bus pass LOL, it might cause other problems more serious.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Dec 20, 2013 20:02:15 GMT -5
It hasn't been tested on humans yet. Apparently the first human trials will begin next year. But it isn't "all theory", since it has been demonstrated to work on mice. The researchers involved seem to be confident that it will also work on humans. As I understand it, it isn't a recipe for eternal life, merely life extension (potentially by a couple of hundred years). There are aspects to ageing that they still haven't figured out, including the telomere problem you mentioned. But they're working on that. Whatever way you look at it this is a huge breakthrough. They've successfully reversed the ageing process in an animal for the first time. Not only have they proved it can be done, they've actually done it. If the technique works for humans it will obviously have enormous social implications.
Cloning technology has improved considerably since Dolly the sheep. Not in terms of cloning entire animals, which is still problematic, but certainly in terms of cloning body parts from stem cells for transplantation. This is still a new field, of course, but the technology is improving all the time. Remember when Christiaan Barnard carried out the first human heart transplant in 1967? The recipient, Louis Washkansky, died a few weeks after the operation; and subsequent transplant recipients also died within days or weeks of receiving their new heart. The consensus was that the technique would never extend patients' lives by more than a week or two. And yet today most heart transplant recipients live near-normal lives, and survival rates are high. Over 4,000 heart transplant operations are carried out every year. The "impossible" operation has almost become routine.
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jem
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Post by jem on Dec 20, 2013 20:56:20 GMT -5
One of the reasons for life extension (for me) would be to find out "what's next". Curiousity is a mighty motivation for a desire to stay around awhile longer.. Even if this life extension does or doesn't work, it's so amazing to watch science fiction become a possible reality or pure science without the fiction.
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