joan
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Post by joan on Nov 25, 2013 9:18:26 GMT -5
PS--
I find a lot of reading hurts my head lately. Maybe I'm getting stupid, maybe it's medical, I don't know.
As for writing more (lily) I am just in an isolated place where I feel I'm wasting my breath & losing energy every time I communicate, especially by speaking. I don't really write, you see, I type what I speak. I'm tired of my own opinions, tired of expressing myself--seems to make everything worse. Tired of arguing. Bob may think it's worth it, but sorry Bob, when it comes to anything you say I don't think it's worth any response from me. Your opinions disgust me, most of them, not all, & I don't find you personally disgusting, you seem rather pleasant, really, but I feel I'm getting in the mud & muck with you by responding. I honestly apologize for being rude here, I guess it is rude of me to say.
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Post by rmarks1 on Nov 25, 2013 13:20:16 GMT -5
PS-- I find a lot of reading hurts my head lately. Maybe I'm getting stupid, maybe it's medical, I don't know. As for writing more (lily) I am just in an isolated place where I feel I'm wasting my breath & losing energy every time I communicate, especially by speaking. I don't really write, you see, I type what I speak. I'm tired of my own opinions, tired of expressing myself--seems to make everything worse. Tired of arguing. Bob may think it's worth it, but sorry Bob, when it comes to anything you say I don't think it's worth any response from me. Your opinions disgust me, most of them, not all, & I don't find you personally disgusting, you seem rather pleasant, really, but I feel I'm getting in the mud & muck with you by responding. I honestly apologize for being rude here, I guess it is rude of me to say. No Joan, you are not being rude. You are being honest and I appreciate that. And I like you. Remember that I used to believe most of what you believe. Daddy was a lifelong Party member. I just found that most of that ideology was wrong. Since finding truth is important to me, I have a need to speak out. If you don't, that's fine. There's no law that says we are forced to discuss anything. At least, not yet. Bob
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joan
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Post by joan on Nov 25, 2013 14:02:20 GMT -5
Thank you Bob for being understanding & not taking offense. Also, you are a gentleman--as usual. :-)
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joan
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Post by joan on Nov 25, 2013 15:55:43 GMT -5
Mylee is the sweetest little doll. As far as Jim, who is a really good looking guy as well, I don't get it that Joan had said that he shouldn't have been born. I didn't read that at all. And I went back to see if I missed it, and I still didn't get that. Deb, Joan really admiires and likes you a lot. I think that the fact that she didn't respond to you, makes me feel that she feels kind of hurt that you would think that of her. And not to mention, she doen't get on line here all that much anymore. Which actually kind of irks me. Good assessment, lily, although I wasn't hurt; I understand that Jim is Deb's achilles heel & she jumped to the wrong conclusion. She's sensitive & that's no crime, but it is not what I meant & sorry Deb took it that way. As for Tricia, I believe she is advocating for a flat tax. I disagree, although I do agree there is way too much tax coming from the middle class. Also, Tricia, it seems some of your family are cheating the system. I've known people who also bend the rules, of course I'm aware of that. Studies have shown over & over that they are in the minority. When Ed Koch was mayor of New York City, in the eighties, he pursued welfare 'cheats', although he made the point that the investigation & any punishment due would cost the city well over the amount this small bunch of cheaters were consuming. He said it wasn't a good financial thing to do but that he understood the public anger concerning it.
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Post by Blarney Rubble on Nov 25, 2013 18:06:12 GMT -5
The concept that you should pay higher tax the higher your earnings is basic Marxism, encapsulated in the phrase: "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." (Though in fact the principle has its origins in the Bible, in Matthew's gospel).
The basic idea is that, in order for all the people in a society to be equal, it is not enough to distribute wealth equally (or to tax people at a "flat rate"), since every individual's needs are different. In Marxism, these individual differences are taken into account. For example, if two people are doing the same job but one has higher living expenses than the other, then in a fair and "equal" society they should receive *unequal* amounts of pay. For example, if two train drivers are doing more or less the same amount of work, but one is single and the other is married with a large family who are dependent on his earnings, then - in a Marxist system - he should receive a higher wage than the single man. In other words the amount of work they do - or even the type of work - comes secondary to their needs. In Communist states, therefore, a bus driver's wages can be the same as those of a neurosurgeon or a top physicist.
"From each according to his ability" means that every citizen should be free to develop their abilities, and that education and training should be provided to facilitate them to this end, and that they should also contribute (to society) according to their ability to contribute (ie, the higher their earnings, the higher their tax contributions).
The concept is rooted in the idea that all property (and wealth) is owned by the community, and must be distributed according to a citizen's needs, and not according to the amount of work they carry out, or the importance of that work, as long as they are productive "to the best of their ability".
So essentially what you have there is Marxism.
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joan
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Post by joan on Nov 25, 2013 19:33:11 GMT -5
Essentially, I'm not a Marxist. I don't mind rich people, or even people getting by. What happens is it's gone overboard. Some have way way way too much & many, too many, can't even get by. I believe there should be a floor below people of decency for which they can't fall through. I do believe in total equality in educational opportunity, that doesn't mean we all could or should, make Ivy League. I believe in standards of life, even for bums or sloths but not for criminals (although there might be less criminality if there were less need).
Tricia once said to me, I don't remember in public or private conversation "Most people Disgust me". She became my heroine, in a way, for that philosophy.
Many folks are disgusting, but our lack of liking them does not mean to me they should be treated unfairly, or live in subhuman conditions.
Our cheap public housing in my city? People don't get basic repairs for years & years. One woman must open her umbrella to sit on her toilet, as her ceiling rains leaks. When I ask for a repair, it takes 5 minutes at most for it to be attended to. Public housing is not a good deal, it's a Desperate Deal.
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Post by teri on Nov 25, 2013 19:40:06 GMT -5
joan, you are my very favorite voice on this forum. i wish you well. teri
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joan
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Post by joan on Nov 25, 2013 19:44:49 GMT -5
joan, you are my very favorite voice on this forum. i wish you well. teri Aw shucks. I like your views too!
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Post by debutante on Nov 26, 2013 19:17:29 GMT -5
TO CLARIFY:
It wasn't anger. After all I've been through with autism -- I ran out of the element of "anger" by the time Jim turned thirteen.
It was more that the statement brought back many memories of a period of my life that I prefer not to think about. When a handicapped child enters the school system, one is forced by necessity to deal with other people and their issues in regard to the handicapped. This is on top of the problem itself.
I could explain more -- but I think it would dishearten anyone who still has to face the obstacles on the course I've already run. Suffice it to say, that the happiest day of my life was when Jim graduated and I was once again in total control of who was allowed to be in contact with him.
I know you probably won't believe this -- but people DO tell the mother of a handicapped child that she should have "chosen" differently. They assume, of course, that she somehow "knew". Even if I had known -- it wouldn't have changed things. Jim is, by far, a more loving and forgiving individual than I could ever hope to be. He probably has more of a "right to be" than I do. To say that his disposition is "sweet" is a vast understatement.
In any event, whenever I see that concept in relation to a handicapped child (in any context) it stirs up a lot of baggage. It took me an entire day to sort myself out. And I am sorry if I misinterpreted the intent behind the statement. It's a fear of mine you see -- first they think you should have "taken care of the problem". And I worry that someday the government will decide to "correct the problem" the same way Hitler did. So you see, it's really not a good idea to mention Step 1 to me in any context because I feel it's only a short distance to people thinking of Step 2.
I probably won't be posting for a bit (but I will be reading). This seems to be the week for odd things happening and I'm sorting through some other things in regard to some other old baggage. I imagine I'll return soon.
Again, my sincere apologies.
--Debutante
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Post by rmarks1 on Nov 26, 2013 22:03:30 GMT -5
Essentially, I'm not a Marxist. I don't mind rich people, or even people getting by. What happens is it's gone overboard. Some have way way way too much & many, too many, can't even get by. I believe there should be a floor below people of decency for which they can't fall through. I do believe in total equality in educational opportunity, that doesn't mean we all could or should, make Ivy League. I believe in standards of life, even for bums or sloths but not for criminals (although there might be less criminality if there were less need). Tricia once said to me, I don't remember in public or private conversation "Most people Disgust me". She became my heroine, in a way, for that philosophy. Many folks are disgusting, but our lack of liking them does not mean to me they should be treated unfairly, or live in subhuman conditions. Our cheap public housing in my city? People don't get basic repairs for years & years. One woman must open her umbrella to sit on her toilet, as her ceiling rains leaks. When I ask for a repair, it takes 5 minutes at most for it to be attended to. Public housing is not a good deal, it's a Desperate Deal. Joan, how exactly do you make people's incomes more equal? With the government? With government programs? Remember that these programs will be run by the same bureaucrats that run those city housing projects with the leaky ceilings. Bob Marks
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Post by tricia on Nov 27, 2013 10:02:35 GMT -5
Guys...it's not really a "flat" tax I'm advocating...it can't be. As I've said, the 15% contribution is different for everyone and people who make more would still be contributing more due to their 15% being larger then a lower income person's 15%. How about this? What IF a person who makes $20000.00 or $25000.00 even didn't pay any taxes? They really don't anyway because they end up getting a complete refund and then some at tax time. Well, if they have children anyway, I know that's how that works.
There are just so many things wrong with the way the whole system is set up right now. The thing about the Marxist system or whatever it's called is crap. It may be the way they're doing things but it's crap. To think that everyone deserves what someone else has is ridiculous. There are lots of things I could want to have because someone else with a higher income have them, thatdoesn't necessarily mean I DESERVE them because that person has obviously either worked harder, figured out a better way or was just plain luckier than me.
The poor care of public housing that Joan talked about....that's an example. WHY would those people WANT to stay there? I know they probably DON'T. Why don't they do something about it? Maybe some try and can't, maybe some don't know how. That's what I was saying about the programs and the limitations. The government should say -Ok, we're going to give you free housing for "this long"...in the meantime you MUST attend this program, this school, whatever, and we will help train you and find you employment so that after your time is up you are better able to do this on your own. You don't just stick somebody in a friggin shit hole project and say we'll foot the bill. Go ahead and do nothing be it because you don't want to or be it because you don't know how. That's NOT help. That costs everyone money and leaves the person on the receiving end with no other option.
As far as the family members I mentioned....it's not so much "abuse" of the system I guess. They qualify, there's no doubt. They qualify though because of the choices they've made and continue to now make because it's easier. They think they shouldn't have to start in the work force at the bottom and make crap money and won't accept a job unless it meets their pay standards...which they shouldn't even have because they've never really WORKED or stuck with anything long enough to move up. Most people DO start out at the bottom. What the hell makes them so special that they think they'll just walk in and get a high paying job with no employment history or skills? So they don't even bother to look for work and complain about how there are no "decent" jobs while collecting money from the government that I am forced to put in to. Then they COMPLAIN when their food stamps are cut by $11.00 or what the hell ever. Here's a novel idea! Go work! If you need an extra $11.00 aks for an hour of overtime. They won't though. You see, they're *entitled* to that money and to be supported by everyone else who has a "decent" job because life's just not fair for them since they can't find one.
Well, you can't *find* one if you aren't looking. You also aren't going to come in making the money that someone who has BEEN on their job for 5 years or more. Ugh. It just irritates me to no end.
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joan
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Post by joan on Nov 27, 2013 14:19:54 GMT -5
tricia, the rent here in the city is always more than $1000. a month, even in the boroughs, and usually two or three times higher than that. That is why there are so many homeless families & people. I know I could not afford it. I don't want to discuss my personal situation, but it's a miracle I can CURRENTLY have a roof over my head.
You sound like you're living in a bubble. Everyone is not You. Some people have real financial problems. Rent in public housing is not free, anyway, what makes you think it is? Not everyone have families that can help either.
Your complaining is giving me a headache. Mind your own life & your own problems & stop picking on people you don't even know. For example, you have no knowledge of *my* financial situation or how I got where I am. I don't think you would be condemning me if you did, but by the way you speak, maybe you would. I have not always done the "right" thing in life. Maybe that's why it is what it is, but maybe it's not. There was a time I was paying THOUSANDS for prescriptions each month. That's right, THOUSANDS. That kind of puts you in a bind for other spending. I'm sure I'm not alone. Sometimes, people need help. Some people aren't you. Live with it, & please stop your complaints.
This separates people from WHO is REALLY Doing the STEALING, & it ain't some schmuck on the corner.
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Post by tricia on Nov 27, 2013 17:35:50 GMT -5
Hi Joan. I'm not complaining, I'm expressing my opinion. I'm also not picking on people. I don't pick on people. I'm using the same approach I've used with my children and even though it didn't appear that they were listening or paying any attention to me when they were younger, it's extremely obvious now, that they were. I've already said I know sometimes people need help. I get it. I know you know the difference in what I'm saying and the examples I'm using so I'm not sure what it is that you take such offense to. I don't know your financial situation but I can say it wouldn't change my opinion how I think of you if you were filthy rich or dirt poor. You also don't know my situation or anything I've done to help other people on my own or my motives for needing more of my own money that for whatever reason the government thinks they're entitled to.
As far as not everyone being me...yeah, well lucky them. I think I'm done for the day. I'm in a mood.
Have a good Thanksgiving.
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joan
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Post by joan on Nov 27, 2013 17:39:58 GMT -5
I still love you anyway you know. Yelling at each other & disagreeing is only part of it. A small one at that.
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Post by tricia on Nov 27, 2013 18:07:29 GMT -5
Well, thanks Joan...I mean it. I really should just keep to myself for a little while. I am a moody girl today. I think it may be PMS...okay, I know it is. I've been flipping back and forth all day long between wanting to hug someone and wanting to peel someone's face off and slap them.
You know what I wish? I wish that I made enough money that when one of my kids needed something I could just say "Here, go get it." I mean, I guess I am fortunate in the fact that I am able to do that for the most part...but not on the scale I wish I could. When Lauren's stupid car breaks and she has a doctor's appt downtown for Mylee and she calls me asking what she should do, I wish I could just say "Here's a few thousand dollars just go get another one." or "Screw that therapy center just take Mylee wherever you want and tell them to bill me." I seriously get upset with myself that I can't do that. I used to think, back when I was Lauren's age that if I ever was able to make what I actually make now that I would be rich!! I'd be set!! I guess in comparison to what I was able to make back then I would have considered myself well off.
I've even been considering going back to waitressing on the weekends just for more money...cash money that isn't taxed. lol. Kirstie wants to move out and I want to be able to say "Here's a few thousand to pay your rent upfront." I just want more and it really isn't even for me. I know my son will be wanting the same soon and I wish I could do that for him too. He's such a good kid he never even asks for anything. There's nothing I can really even think of that *I* want other than to be able to hand money to my kids, which now after thinking about this entire conversation, would I guess be advocating exactly what I said I was against. It would contradict everything I've taught them as far as if you want something go work for it. If I were able to hand them everything they certainly wouldn't have the drive to work for it, would they. It may also give them a false sense of entitlement to have everything handed to them. I just need to get over it I guess.
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joan
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Post by joan on Nov 29, 2013 17:07:13 GMT -5
You're frustrated by all the unfairness you see around you, coming from every direction, tricia. You know your kids are able & deserving & you want to help them. That's so normal.
Let me give some sage advice: The only good thing about a woman getting older? No More PMS. Such a blessing. The Pot of Gold at the end of...............doesn't seem like we really experience rainbows. I'm out of sage advice.
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Post by rmarks1 on Nov 29, 2013 18:50:02 GMT -5
I have nothing against them being alive & being as fulfilled as they can be, no matter who is footing the bill. They deserve nothing but the best because they are alive. I was only able to skim the responses, as there is so much to read. I will read everything in depth, but I may not have more to say. I have decided something though, it's personal, but here goes: "We Are Our Brother's Keeper". In other words, the complete opposite of Bob. 'Nuff said for now. Problem. Where is this money coming from? And how is it getting there? Bob
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2013 20:43:44 GMT -5
I have nothing against them being alive & being as fulfilled as they can be, no matter who is footing the bill. They deserve nothing but the best because they are alive. I was only able to skim the responses, as there is so much to read. I will read everything in depth, but I may not have more to say. I have decided something though, it's personal, but here goes: "We Are Our Brother's Keeper". In other words, the complete opposite of Bob. 'Nuff said for now. Problem. Where is this money coming from? And how is it getting there? Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Nov 29, 2013 22:27:01 GMT -5
Problem. Where is this money coming from? And how is it getting there? Bob Isn't that stealing? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2013 23:19:01 GMT -5
Lighten up, Bob.
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Post by teri on Dec 1, 2013 2:13:47 GMT -5
ted cruz about the pope:
“He clearly doesn’t understand the true meaning of Christianity. I’m not sure what kind of socialist upbringing he’s had, but true Christian principles are found in taking from the poor — not giving to them. How will the poor ever better themselves if we don’t make them work for it, at a very low paying wage? We can’t continue to let Obamacare corrupt the Pope, which it clearly has.”
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Post by teri on Dec 1, 2013 2:16:31 GMT -5
michelle bachman even better: "I don’t know about you guys, but this Pope sounds like a communist who hates America and doesn’t understand the Bible. This radical liberal talk of accepting people, not judging others and helping the poor must stop. Talk like that isn’t from any form of Christianity that I’ve ever heard of.”
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Post by teri on Dec 1, 2013 2:35:35 GMT -5
not real quotes...just for fun...
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joan
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Post by joan on Dec 1, 2013 11:12:43 GMT -5
not real quotes...just for fun... Whew!!
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