mike
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Posts: 54
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Post by mike on Nov 16, 2013 18:38:26 GMT -5
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Post by rmarks1 on Nov 16, 2013 21:54:48 GMT -5
Mike, how can you say Obamacare is "health insurance that works for the consumer" when over 2 million people have already had their policies canceled? And now it seems that the promise to cover those with pre-existing conditions is also being broken. Bob Marks
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2013 22:10:43 GMT -5
EVERY INSURANCE POLICY ALSO BEFORE THE ACA PAYS LESS FOR OUT OF NETWORK DOCTORS AND CLINICS! MOST DON'T EVEN COVER THEM AT ALL!! I AM REALLY STARTING TO DESPITE YOU, BOB. STOP!!! I WOULD BE HAPPIER IF YOU STOPPED POSTING IN FACTS AT ALL. YOU ARE NOT A NICE PERSON, WHICH MAKES SENSE BEING YOU ARE A AYN RAND FOLLOWER. I REALLY NOW DON'T LIKE YOU AT ALL. GO AWAY!!!!! YOU ARE SELFISH AND THINK ONLY OF YOUSELF!!!
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Post by debutante on Nov 16, 2013 22:43:24 GMT -5
Dear Lily:
You are more globally oriented. Some people are more "one on one". I know that Bob cares about individual people. He just isn't into saving the entire world.
Both viewpoints have value. We need people who take care of their immediate families and neighbors. And we need people who take on the bigger projects.
It's a matter of how one chooses to apply their individual skills. Each of you is a "specialist" in a different area. Perhaps it's a matter of seeing the value in what the other does.
I, like Bob, am a person who deals better with "one on one" situations. If I tried to globalize -- I would burn out and become totally ineffective. I imagine that Bob knows what he can handle and applies himself accordingly.
I don't like being invasive, and perhaps what I am going to write next could be construed as such. Think back about a year ago -- do you recall Bob posting about a friend of his who died? And do you remember him saying how he helped her out before she did? Trust me, Bob is not an unkind man. I won't go further into that topic because he deserves his privacy. But his actions in regard to that situation spoke volumes of how far he's willing to go for a friend.
--Debutante
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2013 22:49:55 GMT -5
Deb, I understand what you are saying, and I believe you are that kind of person who sees all sides. You have shown that all these years. Some of the responses you have given to some very unkind posts have shown me that. You are one of the main reasons I still am here. I am really (and not being patronizing at all) in awe of you. I just wish I could handle these types of stuff as well as you.
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mike
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Posts: 54
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Post by mike on Nov 16, 2013 23:42:29 GMT -5
Bob,
According to a survey conducted by Pace University in 2004, the Post was rated the least-credible major news outlet in New York, and the only news outlet to receive more responses calling it "not credible" than credible (44% not credible to 39% credible).
The above is from Wikipedia because I was not familiar with, but was immediately skeptical about the New York Post. I will withhold judgment on that story until I see something from a credible source preferably not owned by Rupert Murdoch.
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Post by rmarks1 on Nov 17, 2013 20:39:26 GMT -5
Bob, According to a survey conducted by Pace University in 2004, the Post was rated the least-credible major news outlet in New York, and the only news outlet to receive more responses calling it "not credible" than credible (44% not credible to 39% credible). The above is from Wikipedia because I was not familiar with, but was immediately skeptical about the New York Post. I will withhold judgment on that story until I see something from a credible source preferably not owned by Rupert Murdoch. Okay Mike. I will use other sources in the future. But what cannot be denied is that about 2 million people have already been notified that their policies have not been renewed. That means that Obamacare, a law that was supposed to insure the uninsured, has already thrown more people off of health insurance than it has gotten on. Bob Marks
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Post by rmarks1 on Nov 17, 2013 20:41:56 GMT -5
EVERY INSURANCE POLICY ALSO BEFORE THE ACA PAYS LESS FOR OUT OF NETWORK DOCTORS AND CLINICS! MOST DON'T EVEN COVER THEM AT ALL!! I AM REALLY STARTING TO DESPITE YOU, BOB. STOP!!! I WOULD BE HAPPIER IF YOU STOPPED POSTING IN FACTS AT ALL. YOU ARE NOT A NICE PERSON, WHICH MAKES SENSE BEING YOU ARE A AYN RAND FOLLOWER. I REALLY NOW DON'T LIKE YOU AT ALL. GO AWAY!!!!! YOU ARE SELFISH AND THINK ONLY OF YOUSELF!!! I'm sorry you feel that way Lily. But if someone disagrees with your views, that does not make them selfish and "not nice." Bob
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 21:37:19 GMT -5
I have no doubt that in real life you're a nice, considerate, professional gentleman. On FACTS it seems all you really want to do is push your politics. And that even occurs on the Skeptic forum in your astrology thread. I can just picture you rubbing your hands together in glee when finding anything you possibly can to speak negatively about the President and his programs. It's really a dilemma for me when I want to just forget the politics forum because I can't black it out and the thread titles are in your face. If I don't dispute the ones I disagree with (which is just about all of them that you post), I feel I'm agreeing by default. But if I do write something in opposition you come back with your counter argument, and back and forth and back and forth. And it's not pleasant, Bob. Not at all. I don't think it's right not to counter some of the really mean-spirited things that you write. (At least they sound that way to me.) I really don't know what to do anymore.
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mike
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Posts: 54
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Post by mike on Dec 4, 2013 16:56:37 GMT -5
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Post by rmarks1 on Dec 4, 2013 22:25:53 GMT -5
The opinion of one person. Here's another. I had lunch today at a little restaurant around the corner. The owner complained to me that the insurance costs for her and her son had gone up 40%. It's not enough Mike to point to people who are being helped. There are also plenty of people who are being hurt by this law as well. Bob P.S. Hey Mike, did you read that whole article? Here's a quote: " Metcalf stopped short of saying the website was fixed, noting that she was endorsing using it in the context of the short window customers have to access the site, and, more importantly, the subsidies available through it, in order to purchase insurance that takes effect on January 1. Metcalf warned that consumers had no control over the back-end problems, which are giving inaccurate information to insurance providers, and said that if you enroll through Healthcare.gov and don’t hear from your new provider within a week, your best bet is to contact the insurer directly." In other words, the site still isn't working! In the free market, success is measured by how many customers are actually able to buy the product, not by how many people are able to merely log on and play with the pages.
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Post by teri on Dec 4, 2013 23:33:41 GMT -5
i know half a dozen people in a range of incomes who are all signed on and are saving money in comparison to their existing coverage.
bob, you are so desperate for this to fail.
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Post by rmarks1 on Dec 5, 2013 12:29:41 GMT -5
i know half a dozen people in a range of incomes who are all signed on and are saving money in comparison to their existing coverage. bob, you are so desperate for this to fail. Anecdotal evidence Teri. Sure it's easy to find a few people who are saving money. This is especially true in New York where premiums are outrageously high due to state law. But for most states, this is not the case. The fact is that for every one who goes on Obamacare and saves money, several loose their old insurance and have to pay higher premiums for a new policy. As for me being "desperate for this to fail", I could just as easily say you are desperate for it to succeed. However, it is irrelevant if either of us is "desperate." The matter will be decided on the facts. The fact is that according to the U.S. government's own study in 2010, up to 93 million people may be thrown of their existing insurance. Bob
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Post by Myke on Dec 5, 2013 12:32:43 GMT -5
Yes Bob I did read the whole article and am well aware it isn't perfect. I like your comment: In the free market, success is measured by how many customers are actually able to buy the product. 40 million people are unable to buy the product in the free market either because they can't afford it, or because they are already sick. That's a failure by your own definition.
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Post by rmarks1 on Dec 5, 2013 13:09:03 GMT -5
Yes Bob I did read the whole article and am well aware it isn't perfect. I like your comment: In the free market, success is measured by how many customers are actually able to buy the product. 40 million people are unable to buy the product in the free market either because they can't afford it, or because they are already sick. That's a failure by your own definition. What makes you think health insurance is a free market? People can't buy out of state insurance because of the law. That's not a free market. Employers have had tax breaks for offering health insurance since WWII. That undermined the market for individual policies. That's not a free market. The government spends hundreds of billions on Medicare and Medicaid. That's not a free market. The failure is due to bad policies on the part of the government. That's also not a free market. Every time the government interferes, they make thing worse. Then they blame their own failures on the free market and they come up with another terrible program. Bob
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mike
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Posts: 54
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Post by mike on Dec 5, 2013 19:26:14 GMT -5
So let's talk hypothetically. If there was a totally free market how many Americans would die each year due to not having health insurance?
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Post by rmarks1 on Dec 5, 2013 22:35:47 GMT -5
So let's talk hypothetically. If there was a totally free market how many Americans would die each year due to not having health insurance? Very few. A free market would increase prosperity so more people would be able to afford health insurance. In addition, people would have more money to contribute to charities, including charities that provide health care for those who cannot afford it. Bob
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mike
Member
Posts: 54
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Post by mike on Dec 6, 2013 10:03:57 GMT -5
Bah! Humbug!
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joan
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Posts: 1,407
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Post by joan on Dec 6, 2013 10:21:26 GMT -5
Bob's vision is loaded with a lot of "If's": IF There Were "A free market (THEN) would increase prosperity so more people would be able to afford health insurance"
IF: "people would have more money (THEN)to contribute to charities, including charities that provide health care for those who cannot afford it."
It's his fantasy. It's what he makes up in his head. Not based on any reality, none. A Bull Session with fellow Libertarians, like the kind we had in college staying up late, smoking dope & drinking wine.
A comment Bob, I won't be discussing those particular fantasies of yours. Not here, not now, not ever. You have really summed your views all up in your last post here. Castles in the sky in your perfect world.
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mike
Member
Posts: 54
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Post by mike on Dec 6, 2013 12:16:15 GMT -5
My fault for introducing hypotheticals.
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Post by rmarks1 on Dec 6, 2013 12:50:31 GMT -5
Bob's vision is loaded with a lot of "If's": IF There Were "A free market (THEN) would increase prosperity so more people would be able to afford health insurance" Yes Joan. That was what Mike was asking. If there were a free market. In fact Joan, before government got involved in heal care, that was exactly the situation in this country. There were plenty of private charities in this country and doctors routinely contributed a portion of their practices to helping the poor. Do you think Obamacare will actually work? Now THAT is believing in castles in the sky. Bob
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joan
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Post by joan on Dec 6, 2013 13:55:59 GMT -5
"before government got involved in heal care, that was exactly the situation in this country. There were plenty of private charities in this country and doctors routinely contributed a portion of their practices to helping the poor."
There were also plenty of people sick & dying for no reason other than their personal finances.
PS--you are right, Mike, that you were the One! Sorry, I guess I overlooked your post.
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Post by rmarks1 on Dec 6, 2013 14:18:16 GMT -5
"before government got involved in heal care, that was exactly the situation in this country. There were plenty of private charities in this country and doctors routinely contributed a portion of their practices to helping the poor." There were also plenty of people sick & dying for no reason other than their personal finances. PS--you are right, Mike, that you were the One! Sorry, I guess I overlooked your post. And you really think that government run healthcare is any better? Take a look at this. Bob
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joan
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Posts: 1,407
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Post by joan on Dec 6, 2013 14:24:47 GMT -5
Yes, I think Gov't healthcare is run better. I have very many British "penpals", Australian too, as well as a slew of Canadian relatives & of course they have complaints, don't we all, but wouldn't change it for ours any day of the week.
The idea is to improve healthcare for everyone, to learn from mistakes, for patients to fight for their rights as human beings, for All People to fight for their rights as Human Beings.
I could print articles, essays, opinions differing from yours, so don't start with me Bob.
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Post by rmarks1 on Dec 6, 2013 18:14:04 GMT -5
Yes, I think Gov't healthcare is run better. I have very many British "penpals", Australian too, as well as a slew of Canadian relatives & of course they have complaints, don't we all, but wouldn't change it for ours any day of the week. Of course they wouldn't change their present system because they have nothing to compare it to. The fact is, they are getting shortchanged. As for our system, the government already has a big chunk of it with Medicare and Medicaid, so it's not strictly free market. The devil is in the details Joan. What exactly constitutes an "improvement?" Is making people wait a few extra weeks for an operation an improvement? Great! Go ahead and post them. This is a discussion board so let's discuss. Bob
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