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Post by debutante on Oct 17, 2013 21:39:22 GMT -5
Is there really such a thing as the Illuminati? It seems there's a widespread belief in this organization. I come across references to it all the time. But I've never seen anyone offer real proof that it exists.
So skeptics, is there such a thing? And if there is, is it just a certain hereditary group of people behind it? Or are the really far out theories (reptilians) enough to deem the whole thing hogwash?
--Debutante
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Post by faskew on Oct 19, 2013 14:09:25 GMT -5
Yes and no. Yes, there have been several groups of people who formed "secret" organizations and called themselves Illuminati (or other similar names). But these are more like the Skull and Bones society at Yale or other such secret groups made up of men who enjoy playing at secrets and costumes. No, in the sense that there is not now and never has been a secret international group that runs the world from behind the scenes. (If for no other reason than the rich and powerful don't play well together. Imagine Donald Trump trying to get a consensus among a group of 12 others with the same personality that he has. LOL.)But there are many people who believe in the fantasy version of Illuminati and make wild claims about them.
You'll also see a large number of references in pop culture: movies, TV shows, games, graphic novels, etc. The lines between the fiction groups and the conspiracy groups often cross.
A similar cultural phenomenon is H. P. Lovecraft's 1922 fictional book, the Necronomicon, and his fictional city of Arkham Mass and its fictional Miskotonic University. Although clearly fictional from the beginning, I've had people assure me that the Necronomicon is a real book, because they've seen it referenced in so many places.
From Wikipedia's Necronomicon entry: "Many readers have believed it to be a real work, with booksellers and librarians receiving many requests for it; pranksters have listed it in rare book catalogues, and a student smuggled a card for it into the Yale University Library's card catalog."
The Illuminati hoax is much older and therefore has had much longer to entrench itself in the popular mind. 8->
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Post by debutante on Oct 19, 2013 19:37:53 GMT -5
Dear Fred:
Thank you!!! I often read this one conspiracy site and those people are terrified of the Illuminati. I was never sure how much of what they wrote or referenced was true. And you're right in that the references in pop culture are so frequent, that it seems as if this is a "given". You've set my mind at ease.
--Debutante
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Post by Blarney Rubble on Oct 19, 2013 23:32:34 GMT -5
On the other hand you'd expect the Illuminati, if they did exist, to edit their Wikipedia entry to deny their own existence, wouldn't you?
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Post by faskew on Oct 20, 2013 8:40:21 GMT -5
Actually, if the conspiracy-type Illuminati actually existed no one would have ever heard of the word at all and there would be no need for denials. If no one had ever heard of them, that would prove that they exit. Because they're famous, that proves that the don't exist. LOL. 8->
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Post by Blarney Rubble on Oct 21, 2013 1:53:43 GMT -5
Except that, human nature being what it is, somebody somewhere along the line is always going to let the cat out of the bag. Even the NSA couldn't keep their global surveillance program a secret forever. And we do know about various secret organizations that certainly did (and may still) exist.
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Post by faskew on Oct 24, 2013 13:33:34 GMT -5
The problem with large secrets, like the NSA, is that thousands of people know about them. And most of these people are the equivalent of privates, who are not personally invested in keeping the secrets of the higher ups. So, yeah, info gets out. And if something like the Illuminati world-conspiracy actually existed, then a disgruntled private would have provided real evidence long ago. The conspiracies that conspiracy buffs claim to expose are generally pretty silly. If that's the best the secret organizations can come up with, there's nothing to worry about. 8-D
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Post by Blarney Rubble on Oct 26, 2013 0:46:15 GMT -5
Actually I would say the "Illuninati" are the members of the Rothschild and Rockefeller families, who control TV stations, newspapers, and probably governments. The Rothschild fortune is reputed to be worth over ten trillion dollars (that's one of the lower estimates). That's one followed by thirteen zeros - ten times more than all the money in circulation. The Rockefellers aren't far behind. And these families became wealthy entirely through the swindle explained in the video I posted.
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Post by debutante on Oct 26, 2013 3:37:51 GMT -5
Actually I would say the "Illuninati" are the members of the Rothschild and Rockefeller families, who control TV stations, newspapers, and probably governments. The Rothschild fortune is reputed to be worth over ten trillion dollars (that's one of the lower estimates). That's one followed by thirteen zeros - ten times more than all the money in circulation. The Rockefellers aren't far behind. And these families became wealthy entirely through the swindle explained in the video I posted. So, then do you believe they are trying to usher in a New World Order? Do you think they're leaving "clues" in mass media to foreshadow their intentions? At what point do you think that it crosses from fantasy to reality? I've read some really far out Illuminati theories on the Above Top Secret forum. Admittedly, those people can be a bit extreme. --Debutante
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Post by Blarney Rubble on Oct 26, 2013 12:55:25 GMT -5
I just mean they have far too much power for people who haven't been elected by anyone. They can (and do) dictate the policies of countries through their control of the media (which they pretty much own) and through lobbying, bribery etc. They can manipulate entire economies for their own ends, orchestrate recessions etc through their control of the banks and the markets. And yet they are merely leeches whose wealth is derived from the labour of others. They produce nothing of value, but they are in a position to control almost everything.
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Post by faskew on Oct 27, 2013 10:37:25 GMT -5
I agree that there are people who have way too much power & money. But I don't think that they get together to plan how to run the world. They get together to figure out ways to get more money. 8->
Families in power are a sort of 19th century concept. These days it's corporations. The great-great-great-grandchildren of the Robber Barons tend to be trust-fund babies, more like Paris Hilton than Bruce Wayne. Although there's not much competition in the "free market" these days, since most things that can be owned (factories, land, office buildings, banks, news media, entertainment media, etc.) are already owned by a small handful of corporations, the rich folk themselves often don't like each other. It's much like post-WW2, when our German scientists were being matched against the Soviet German scientists in the space race. Now it's "our" rich people versus "their" rich people. The US Senate is a good example of this. LOL.
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joan
Member
Posts: 1,407
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Post by joan on Oct 27, 2013 14:24:19 GMT -5
Fred: "Now it's "our" rich people versus "their" rich people."
I disagree. It appears that rich people today don't have the sense of nationalistic pride or patriotism as they have their sense of their money and power. I believe they are without country if their money was threatened & would protect each others' interests before any other. IMO.
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Post by faskew on Oct 27, 2013 17:03:30 GMT -5
Quite likely. But they are willing to turn on each other for more money, if not for the greater good. It's the old "takes a thief to catch a thief". Or, since politicians are for sale, we need to be the highest bidder. 8->
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Post by Blarney Rubble on Oct 27, 2013 18:33:20 GMT -5
"I agree that there are people who have way too much power & money. But I don't think that they get together to plan how to run the world."
But they do! That's exactly what the Bilderberg Group is: a secret society whose membership is comprised of the wealthiest and most powerful people on the planet, and they discuss things like the "direction" the world should take and which social policies to support. One of their known "pet projects" is depopulation. The creation of a world bank (which would eventually launch a global currency) is another of their aims. In his book, "The True Story of the Bilderberg Group", Daniel Estulin, who spent more than a decade investigating the Bilderber Group, describes it as "a shadow world government which threatens to take away our right to direct our own destinies·" According to him, Bilderbergers want "to supplant individual nation-state sovereignty with an all-powerful global government, corporate controlled, and check-mated by militarized enforcement".
And there are several other even more secret organizations of wealthy elite, some which have their roots in Rosicrucianism.
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Post by faskew on Nov 2, 2013 16:40:14 GMT -5
There's no good evidence for the wilder conspiracy claims about this group. yes, there are claims, mostly by far right writers and groups. But not proved. And they don't have all the most powerful people in the world - the group only has about 150 people and there are an estimate 1,500 billionaires in the world - about 10 times more than are members of the Bilderberg Group. You can't control the world if you only have 1/10 of the richest people in your conspiracy. 8->
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Post by Blarney Rubble on Nov 2, 2013 18:46:23 GMT -5
"You can't control the world if you only have 1/10 of the richest people in your conspiracy. 8->"
You can if you have the richest and most influential 150. Bilderberg members include Bill Gates, Josef Ackermann, Ben Bernanke, William Joseph McDonough, Paul Volcker, David Rockefeller, Sr, David Petraeus, Robert Zoellick, Richard Perle, Henry Kissinger, Tony Blair.
And actually there is quite a lot of evidence to support some of the claims made for this group. For example, several Bilderbergers have spoken publicly about the need to take drastic action to curb population growth, as well as for their support for the idea of a world bank with a single currency. The establishment of the EU, it should be remembered, was first proposed by the Bilderberg group back in the 1950s. And there is quite a lot of evidence to suggest that the group - or a syndicate within the group - was engineered the 1973 oil price shock to prop up the dollar and make trillions of dollars for Wall Street. Obviously if you have heads of governments, CEOs of major banks and financial institutions and media moguls discussing ideas and policies, there is enormous scope to promote specific policies and advance specific agendas. Does this amount to conspiracy? Yes, I think it probably does, since they are agreeing, in secret, to use their wealth and political influence help each other to achieve certain objectives.
the decision to create a European Union was taken at the first official Bilderberg Group meeting in 1953
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Post by faskew on Nov 3, 2013 13:08:23 GMT -5
Yes, the group, like all groups, does have goals. But I just don't think that they have the power (or ability) to do the things they are accused of. As above, there are plenty of other rich and powerful types who have different goals and who would opposed the B. Group. One example: the Koch brothers and Bill Gates. Battling billionaires. It's just not that easy to control the complex events of our modern world, even if everyone in power was playing the same game. And they're not.
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