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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2014 3:40:04 GMT -5
You could. And it would be a ridiculous hyperbole unfettered from verifiable evidence, just like your repeated attempts to equate all forms of liberalism and left-wing politics to Stalinism. Ad Hominem presented without any supporting evidence. That argument is no ad hominem. As opposed to Mr. Bloomberg, whose sole argument that college students are being indoctrinated is the claim that the majority of college professors are Democrat supporters, i.e. an ad hominem against US college professors.True, you used the word "indoctrination" instead. Sorry, but "a 150 year old book says so" is hardly substantial evidence, and Mill is not exactly an authority on human psychology to begin with (on account of having been completely out of touch with the field for one-and-a-half century). You are right. Unlike teachers, business owners do actually command the people they're in charge of.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 13, 2014 10:11:23 GMT -5
Ad Hominem presented without any supporting evidence. That argument is no ad hominem. Yes it is. I notice that you didn't give an exact quote where Bloomberg allegedly said this. That is because there is no such quote. What Bloomberg did say was this: "When 96 percent of faculty donors prefer one candidate to another, you have to wonder whether students are being exposed to the diversity of views that a university should offer. Diversity of gender, ethnicity and orientation is important. But a university cannot be great if its faculty is politically homogenous." So Bloomberg never said the students were being indoctrinated. You made that up. Yes, I used that word. Bloomberg never did though, contrary to your claim. Age does not necessarily invalidate ideas. Mill was defending free speech and the right of people to proclaim unpopular views. Perhaps you think that freedom of speech is also outmoded? Are you saying that unpopular views should be suppressed? They command them to work, not to believe. Ah yes. I can see it now. Before the workday begins, the boss says "Before you all start working, I want to preach to you about the virtues of free market capitalism." Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2014 8:55:20 GMT -5
I notice that you didn't give an exact quote where Bloomberg allegedly said this. That is because there is no such quote. What Bloomberg did say was this: "When 96 percent of faculty donors prefer one candidate to another, you have to wonder whether students are being exposed to the diversity of views that a university should offer. Diversity of gender, ethnicity and orientation is important. But a university cannot be great if its faculty is politically homogenous." So Bloomberg never said the students were being indoctrinated. It's still an ad hominem, because it insinuates that their personal beliefs render these people incapable of adequately understanding and presenting opposing views. Then bringing him up was a Red Herring to begin with. This discussion isn't about the right to free speech, or the right to voice a minority opinion. Neither the prevalence of Democrat college professors, nor Bloomberg's (and your) objection to their prevalence is a free speech issue. What about firing people because they allegedly voted for the "wrong" candidate? www.businessinsider.com/voted-for-obama-youre-fired-2009-10Or because they publicly proclaimed their support for gay marriage? www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/a-rocketown-employee-alleges-he-was-fired-for-wearing-a-t-shirt-supporting-same-sex-marriage/Content?oid=3241892
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 15, 2014 17:53:21 GMT -5
I notice that you didn't give an exact quote where Bloomberg allegedly said this. That is because there is no such quote. What Bloomberg did say was this: "When 96 percent of faculty donors prefer one candidate to another, you have to wonder whether students are being exposed to the diversity of views that a university should offer. Diversity of gender, ethnicity and orientation is important. But a university cannot be great if its faculty is politically homogenous." So Bloomberg never said the students were being indoctrinated. It's still an ad hominem, because it insinuates that their personal beliefs render these people incapable of adequately understanding and presenting opposing views. Well? Don't they? Apparently you are not familiar with what has been happening on U.S. campuses in the last 3 decades: And this: www.aaup.org/report/freedom-expression-and-campus-speech-codesAnd this: mail.michaelbryson.net/teaching/csun/hentoff.pdfThat's why we have secret ballots in this country. The new CEO of Mozilla/Firefox was recently fired because he donated $1,000 to a ballot campaign to define marriage as between a man a woman. The donation was 8 years ago. Would you also protest his firing? But that is besides the point. The purpose of business is not to promote free inquiry. The purpose of a university is. Suppression of ideas damages one of the core purposes of higher education. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2014 18:33:11 GMT -5
It's still an ad hominem, because it insinuates that their personal beliefs render these people incapable of adequately understanding and presenting opposing views. Well? Don't they? You tell me Bob. By your own argument, you must be incapable of presenting a point of view that is not 100% in lockstep with the Libertarian Party.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 17, 2014 15:26:21 GMT -5
You tell me Bob. By your own argument, you must be incapable of presenting a point of view that is not 100% in lockstep with the Libertarian Party. But I'm not a teacher. It's not my job to present opposing points of view with equal force and then let students decide. And even if it were, if I am incapable of presenting opposing points of view , the so are you. FACTS is better at doing this since this is a forum where opposing viewpoints are presented. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2014 19:12:36 GMT -5
Apparently you are not familiar with what has been happening on U.S. campuses in the last 3 decades: So what you are saying is that US colleges need to re-introduce sexual harassment and racist agitation onto their campuses? So the government is in fact successfully defending US college students' freedom of expression. That doesn't make it look like free speech is being oppressed, does it?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 17, 2014 20:36:16 GMT -5
Apparently you are not familiar with what has been happening on U.S. campuses in the last 3 decades: So what you are saying is that US colleges need to re-introduce sexual harassment and racist agitation onto their campuses? Obviously not. We are talking about freedom of speech here. There is no "right to harassment. Oh but it is. Most people would not make the effort to take this to court. And federal cases are especially expensive. Here is further evidence about the increasing lack of free speech on USA campuses: Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2014 3:59:22 GMT -5
So Bob, do you agree with the article that voicing disagreement during a speech is harassment and must be curtailed?
And that removing protesters is an exercise in free speech?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jul 1, 2014 13:49:32 GMT -5
So Bob, do you agree with the article that voicing disagreement during a speech is harassment and must be curtailed? And that removing protesters is an exercise in free speech? If the protestors are interrupting the speaker, then they are denying the right of the speaker to free speech, aren't they? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 16:16:32 GMT -5
Are they? If both of us talk in a public square, and I talk louder than you, am I curtailing your right to free speech? I don't think so.
Free speech is the right to speak, not the right to be heard.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jul 2, 2014 17:09:06 GMT -5
Are they? If both of us talk in a public square, and I talk louder than you, am I curtailing your right to free speech? I don't think so. What exactly do you mean here? Are we both standing on soapboxes and talking about different subjects? If so, then you are not curtailing my right to free speech. On the other hand, if you are deliberately shouting to keep other people from hearing me, then yes, you are. Then you agree with Putin when he limits his opposition's access to the media. After all, they can still speak any time they want to, right? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 12:20:24 GMT -5
Are they? If both of us talk in a public square, and I talk louder than you, am I curtailing your right to free speech? I don't think so. What exactly do you mean here? Are we both standing on soapboxes and talking about different subjects? If so, then you are not curtailing my right to free speech. On the other hand, if you are deliberately shouting to keep other people from hearing me, then yes, you are. So the students would have been in the right if they'd stood on a soapbox? Most people would not be able to afford their own television channel, or their own newspaper. Some cannot even afford internet access. That does not mean either of those are restricted in their freedom of speech. Freedom of speech only applies to the question whether the government restricts the form or content of speech acts, not whether these acts have a realistic chance to take place in the first place.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jul 3, 2014 13:59:28 GMT -5
What exactly do you mean here? Are we both standing on soapboxes and talking about different subjects? If so, then you are not curtailing my right to free speech. On the other hand, if you are deliberately shouting to keep other people from hearing me, then yes, you are. So the students would have been in the right if they'd stood on a soapbox? The example you gave was two people both talking in a public square. The example in the article involved students disrupting a scheduled event with a speaker. They kept the speaker from presenting their views. But the example of Putin's repression is not about "most people." Putin silenced political parties that opposed him. They certainly could afford media time. It's true that the right of free speech does not mean anyone is under an obligation to provide you a podium. It is also true that freedom of the press does not mean anyone is under an obligation to provide you with a press. But that is not what is happening here. Opposing points of view are being deliberately excluded. In several cases, speakers at public events (where someone was providing a podium) were harassed and shouted down. They were not permitted to express their views. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 9:06:00 GMT -5
But the example of Putin's repression is not about "most people." Putin silenced political parties that opposed him. They certainly could afford media time. Which is the exact opposite of what I was talking about. Governments restricting speech is a clear violation of the freedom of speech. People who cannot make themselves heard, is not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 9:13:14 GMT -5
It's true that the right of free speech does not mean anyone is under an obligation to provide you a podium. It is also true that freedom of the press does not mean anyone is under an obligation to provide you with a press. But that is not what is happening here. Opposing points of view are being deliberately excluded. Deliberately excluded by whom? If the exclusion happens via campus authority or governmental institution, then that is a violation of free speech. If the exclusion happens via angry people shouting down a speaker, then it's free speech in action. Or are you now saying that making your anger heard should be illegal? If Nazis or the KKK held a rally on a college campus, do you think people should be forbidden from calling them out or shout them down? Is criticism only allowed if it happens far away so that it can't be heard by the people being criticized? Being shouted down is an example of free speech in action - people have a right to oppose your speech with their own. If you're not loud enough to drown them out, then that is your problem, but it's not a restriction on your right to speak. Again, the right to speak does not include the right to be heard. If people don't want to hear what you have to say, they have a right to make their unwillingness heard. It would have been different if the administration had stepped in and prevented either side from speaking - that would have been a violation of free speech. But one side trying to shout the other down? Not so.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jul 7, 2014 12:44:56 GMT -5
It's true that the right of free speech does not mean anyone is under an obligation to provide you a podium. It is also true that freedom of the press does not mean anyone is under an obligation to provide you with a press. But that is not what is happening here. Opposing points of view are being deliberately excluded. Deliberately excluded by whom? If the exclusion happens via campus authority or governmental institution, then that is a violation of free speech. If the exclusion happens via angry people shouting down a speaker, then it's free speech in action. Or are you now saying that making your anger heard should be illegal? The disruptions are happening at institutions of higher education. These are places where people go to hear hear different viewpoints expressed. Shouting down speakers is a violation of academic freedom.. You do have a right to express your opinions in a public place. You do not have a right to barge into someone's home, for example, to express you opinion without first getting their permission. Free speech does not mean anyone is under an obligation to provide you with a podium. It certainly does not mean you have a right to seize a podium. If Jews held a rally in Nazi Germany, do you think Nazi disruptors should have not been prevented from shouting them down? Then beating a drum or playing loud music to keep people from hearing you should also be legal, right? It's true that no one is under an obligation to listen to what you have to say. But they do not have the right to keep others who are interested from listening to you. If what you say were true, then hackers who don't like your posts would have the right to delete them. Is that your position? Wrong. If people don't want to hear what you have to say, then they have the right to not listen. They do not have the right to keep other people who do want to listen from hearing you. In an academic environment, each side is given time to present their views. The right of free speech includes the right to be heard by those who want to listen to you. The disruptive demonstrators deprived the speakers of that right. The police commissioner of New York, Ray Kelly, was invited to speak at Brown University. His talk was disrupted by demonstrators who claimed that his policies were racist. The demonstrators made this decision on their own without any discussion. Were Kelly's policies indeed racist? I don't know. He was presented from giving his views. You gave an example of people shouting down pro-Nazi speakers. Remember that shouting down people who express views you don't like was a Nazi tactic. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 6:56:32 GMT -5
Deliberately excluded by whom? If the exclusion happens via campus authority or governmental institution, then that is a violation of free speech. If the exclusion happens via angry people shouting down a speaker, then it's free speech in action. Or are you now saying that making your anger heard should be illegal? The disruptions are happening at institutions of higher education. These are places where people go to hear hear different viewpoints expressed. Shouting down speakers is a violation of academic freedom.. You do have a right to express your opinions in a public place. You do not have a right to barge into someone's home, for example, to express you opinion without first getting their permission. Free speech does not mean anyone is under an obligation to provide you with a podium. It certainly does not mean you have a right to seize a podium. So basically, "free speech" means to you that the government should be allowed to prevent anybody from speaking if they haven't gone through the proper channels of getting an officially recognized soapbox and holding an officially recognized speech at an oficially recognized speaking place. Do I have that correct?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jul 9, 2014 13:42:40 GMT -5
The disruptions are happening at institutions of higher education. These are places where people go to hear hear different viewpoints expressed. Shouting down speakers is a violation of academic freedom.. You do have a right to express your opinions in a public place. You do not have a right to barge into someone's home, for example, to express you opinion without first getting their permission. Free speech does not mean anyone is under an obligation to provide you with a podium. It certainly does not mean you have a right to seize a podium. So basically, "free speech" means to you that the government should be allowed to prevent anybody from speaking if they haven't gone through the proper channels of getting an officially recognized soapbox and holding an officially recognized speech at an oficially recognized speaking place. Do I have that correct? No McAnswer. You have that totally wrong. The government may not stop people from speaking. It's in the Bill of Rights. The government may, however, stop you from stealing someone else's podium. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 8:48:49 GMT -5
So basically, "free speech" means to you that the government should be allowed to prevent anybody from speaking if they haven't gone through the proper channels of getting an officially recognized soapbox and holding an officially recognized speech at an oficially recognized speaking place. Do I have that correct? No McAnswer. You have that totally wrong. The government may not stop people from speaking. It's in the Bill of Rights. The government may, however, stop you from stealing someone else's podium. Bob You just said that people should not be allowed to shout down others. That means you condone the government shutting down speech acts that are too overbearing on another speech act.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jul 12, 2014 10:40:00 GMT -5
No McAnswer. You have that totally wrong. The government may not stop people from speaking. It's in the Bill of Rights. The government may, however, stop you from stealing someone else's podium. Bob You just said that people should not be allowed to shout down others. That means you condone the government shutting down speech acts that are too overbearing on another speech act. No. What I said is that people should not be able to keep other people from exercising their right to free speech. "Too overbearing?" That is not what these demonstrators are doing. They are preventing other people from speaking. Nazis used to disrupt meetings of their opposition. Are you saying that all the Nazis were doing was exercising their right to free speech? The right to free speech does not include the "right" to keep others from speaking. Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Jul 12, 2014 11:10:30 GMT -5
No McAnswer. You have that totally wrong. The government may not stop people from speaking. It's in the Bill of Rights. The government may, however, stop you from stealing someone else's podium. Bob You just said that Hey McAnswer, that's a lie! You shouldn't be permitted to say that! people should YOUR VIEWS SUCK! YOUR VIEWS SUCK! not be allowed to shout down others. WE SHALL OVERCOME! WE SHALL OVERCOME! POWER TO THE PEOPLE! That means you condone WE CONDONE THAT ANYONE WITH VIEWS AS UNPOPULAR AS YOURS SHOULD BE SHOUTED DOWN! the government ONE TWO THREE FOUR! LET'S SHOW MCANSWER THE DOOR! shutting down speech acts that are too overbearing on another speech act. So this is what you are condoning as free speech? Correct? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 11:58:37 GMT -5
You don't see me argueing that the government should fine or imprison you for what you did, do you?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 12:01:20 GMT -5
You just said that people should not be allowed to shout down others. That means you condone the government shutting down speech acts that are too overbearing on another speech act. No. What I said is that people should not be able to keep other people from exercising their right to free speech. ... that people should not be able to keep other people from exercising their right to free speech by way of speech, yes. Which means shutting down speech acts that get in the way of other speech acts. Also known as restricting speech.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jul 12, 2014 12:14:23 GMT -5
No McAnswer. You have that totally wrong. The government may not stop people from speaking. It's in the Bill of Rights. The government may, however, stop you from stealing someone else's podium. Bob You just said that people should not be allowed to shout down others. Yes. At private gatherings such as University lectures and speeches. This is the same as saying that people cannot crash your private party and disrupt it unless they have your permission. No, that means the government has the obligation to protect private parties and private gatherings. Remember the incidents we are looking at involve demonstrators interrupting speakers at a private university lecture. Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Jul 12, 2014 12:18:57 GMT -5
You don't see me argueing that the government should fine or imprison you for what you did, do you? You can't argue that without contradicting yourself. But this is the kind of thing that you claim is "free speech." It's nothing more than an attempt to keep someone else from exercising their right to free speech. If someone did that sort of thing on a regular basis, the board moderators would be within their rights to ban them in accordance with the rules of the board. What's the principle here? The right of free speech does not imply in any way that anyone else is under an obligation to supply you with a podium. What those demonstrators did was to seize a podium without permission. And that is a violation of property rights. The government has an obligation to prevent that. Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Jul 12, 2014 12:26:35 GMT -5
No. What I said is that people should not be able to keep other people from exercising their right to free speech. ... that people should not be able to keep other people from exercising their right to free speech by way of speech, yes. Which means shutting down speech acts that get in the way of other speech acts. Also known as restricting speech. Wrong. The demonstrators invaded a private lecture with the expressed goal of keeping the speaker from speaking. They were on private property at a private gathering. The university would have been within their rights to have the demonstrators removed because they were violating the university's property rights. This is exactly the same as someone crashing a private party that you were giving and being loud and disruptive. You would be withing your rights to throw them out. You still haven't answered my question as to whether or not you would have supported the right of Nazis to disrupt opposition meetings in the early 1930's. Bob
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