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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 12, 2018 9:31:27 GMT -5
Is this the beginning of another Industrial Revolution?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 12:12:31 GMT -5
Sure, you can manufacture weapons with 3D printers - the blueprints exist, and the production is well within the capabilities of state of the art printers. But that just gives you a very compelling looking plastic replica of a real gun. The things that turn these lumps of plastic into actual weapons - live ammunition, firing mechanisms - can't be manufactured with a 3D printer because those are outside the realm of any current 3D printer's functionality.
Of course, the idea that personal ownership of small firearms meaningfully prevents a hypothetical tyranny from oppressing you is a complete fantasy in the first place.
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Post by faskew on Jun 16, 2018 8:09:23 GMT -5
Currently, certain gun types buy non-restricted parts to finish off their plastic guns. But it may soon be possible to build an entirely plastic gun. And plastic bullets that burn up the case are possible, too.
But I do agree about the silliness of believing that small arms can protect people against national armies. If a ruthless dictator, one who doesn't care about how many people he kills, has artillery, tanks, and aircraft, having pop-guns is meaningless. Yeah, you can fight the local cops (maybe), but a single napalm strike can easily take out your entire compound.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2018 10:27:44 GMT -5
Plastic bullets lack some very important chemical characteristics that real bullets need for a gun to operate.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2018 10:32:15 GMT -5
But I do agree about the silliness of believing that small arms can protect people against national armies. If a ruthless dictator, one who doesn't care about how many people he kills, has artillery, tanks, and aircraft, having pop-guns is meaningless. Yeah, you can fight the local cops (maybe), but a single napalm strike can easily take out your entire compound. In 1933, the Austrian government suspended parliament and seized control of the country in a coup d'etat to establish what would later be known as Austrofascism. In response, socialist paramilitary organizations (basically, former WW1 soldiers who'd kept their guns after the war) rose up in revolt. They were crushed within four days. So based on my own country's history I wouldn't be confident in even a substantial militia movement to oppose an organized professional army, and certainly not the most well equipped military on the planet.
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Post by faskew on Jun 16, 2018 11:36:45 GMT -5
Bullets can be made without any metal. What would normally be the brass shell is a hardened version of the propellant and it burns up when fired. There's no need for a spiral barrel if you're making a handgun or machine pistol. Granted, not nearly as good as metal bullets, but if you're making stuff at home and want something that won't show up under a metal detector, plastic can be used. But, again, pretty pointless for fighting a government. I may be the only person on this board who has actually see an artillery strike or a napalm attack. 99% of tough-talking militia types would run away screaming if they were being shot at by the big stuff. 8->
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2018 13:02:15 GMT -5
My argument is that you can't manufacture gunpowder with a 3D printer.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2018 13:07:14 GMT -5
Bullets can be made without any metal. What would normally be the brass shell is a hardened version of the propellant and it burns up when fired. There's no need for a spiral barrel if you're making a handgun or machine pistol. Granted, not nearly as good as metal bullets, but if you're making stuff at home and want something that won't show up under a metal detector, plastic can be used. My argument is that you can't actually produce the propellant with a 3D printer, because 3D printing technology can't reproduce chemical compounds or other specialized material.
You can produce ammunition at home, of course, but only if you've got the material, the tools and the knowledge to do so, and that would be a nontrivial hurdle for quite a few of these crazy types.
Quite a few wannabe Al Qaida and IS terrorists have gotten themselves injured or killed because they weren't nearly as skilled at making explosives as they thought they were.
I mean heck, the FBI and the ATF have busted militia compounds with a lot less than that. No argument there.
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Post by faskew on Jun 16, 2018 17:08:31 GMT -5
Agreed, but it won't be long until the printers can make the propellant also. They're working on printers that can reproduce human cells. Bullets should be much easier. Don't know for sure, just guessing that someone, somewhere is working on it. 8-<
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Post by raybar on Jun 16, 2018 19:20:16 GMT -5
The technology to print high quality metal parts already exists. A little expensive for the average lone crazy, but not out of reach for anyone with money or a terrorist group with a little financial backing.
Need gun? Search youtube for "homemade gun" or "3D printer gun." Many ways to proceed, from very low tech to very high tech.
Need propellant? Download instructions. Get ingredients. Mix together. Avoid unintended explosions.
Here's a high tech .45 pistol
And here's a low tech pistol (hand shotgun) you could make with simple hand tools.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2018 12:11:48 GMT -5
Agreed, but it won't be long until the printers can make the propellant also. They're working on printers that can reproduce human cells. Bullets should be much easier. Don't know for sure, just guessing that someone, somewhere is working on it. 8-< Not unless they can conjure the necessary molecules out of thin air.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2018 12:13:38 GMT -5
Need propellant? Download instructions. Get ingredients. Mix together. Avoid unintended explosions. That way of making bullets has been around since people invented bullets. It hasn't resulted in a vast network of hobbyist ammunition manufacturers, though, rather the exact opposite.
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Post by raybar on Jun 17, 2018 13:02:41 GMT -5
There may not be a "vast network of hobbyist ammunition manufactures," but I can assure you that every medium to large size gun shop I have ever visited sold a variety of propellants, bullets, cartridge cases, and primers, as well as the equipment needed to assemble cartridges in a wide range of sizes. And if you want to cast your own bullets, they have what you need for that too.
The scary part is that, although you need to pay attention to what you're doing to achieve good results, it is REALLY REALLY REALLY EASY.
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Post by faskew on Jun 17, 2018 15:25:44 GMT -5
Actually, it's not that hard to build your own napalm and poison gas, either. The difficult part is a delivery system such that you can be far away when the stuff goes off. But if you're a religious crazy, Christian or Muslim, and expect to pop off to heaven as soon as you kill a bunch of people, you don't have to figure that part out. 8-<
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 17, 2018 22:31:11 GMT -5
Back in 1975, I visited some friends in New Jersey. One guy was a gun nut. He took me down to his workshop and shoed me the equipment he had to make his own bullets. He said it was cheaper than buying them retail.
Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 18, 2018 11:40:26 GMT -5
Sure, you can manufacture weapons with 3D printers - the blueprints exist, and the production is well within the capabilities of state of the art printers. But that just gives you a very compelling looking plastic replica of a real gun. The things that turn these lumps of plastic into actual weapons - live ammunition, firing mechanisms - can't be manufactured with a 3D printer because those are outside the realm of any current 3D printer's functionality.
Of course, the idea that personal ownership of small firearms meaningfully prevents a hypothetical tyranny from oppressing you is a complete fantasy in the first place.
When the Nazis invaded France in 1940, one of their first acts was to seize all weapons owned by private individuals. The penalty for refusing to give up your weapons was death. A lot of French citizens hid their guns. These were later used to arm the French Resistance.
Bob
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Post by faskew on Jun 19, 2018 8:01:05 GMT -5
Plus better weapons dropped in by the Brits. But the Resistance could not chase the Germans out. It was the Allied invasion that did that. If there had been no Allied invasion, France would still be under German rule. The Resistance provided valuable intelligence and sabotage for the Allies, but the Allie would have won even if the Resistance did not exist. The reverse is not true. Resistance-type groups can be an irritant, but they can't defeat proper military forces.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 11:19:22 GMT -5
Sure, you can manufacture weapons with 3D printers - the blueprints exist, and the production is well within the capabilities of state of the art printers. But that just gives you a very compelling looking plastic replica of a real gun. The things that turn these lumps of plastic into actual weapons - live ammunition, firing mechanisms - can't be manufactured with a 3D printer because those are outside the realm of any current 3D printer's functionality. Of course, the idea that personal ownership of small firearms meaningfully prevents a hypothetical tyranny from oppressing you is a complete fantasy in the first place.
When the Nazis invaded France in 1940, one of their first acts was to seize all weapons owned by private individuals. The penalty for refusing to give up your weapons was death. A lot of French citizens hid their guns. These were later used to arm the French Resistance. Bob
And the French Resistance prevented the Nazis from oppressing the French population?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 20, 2018 13:19:20 GMT -5
When the Nazis invaded France in 1940, one of their first acts was to seize all weapons owned by private individuals. The penalty for refusing to give up your weapons was death. A lot of French citizens hid their guns. These were later used to arm the French Resistance. Bob
And the French Resistance prevented the Nazis from oppressing the French population?
Are you claiming the French Resistance was useless?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 7:05:18 GMT -5
No. I'm claiming that they didn't prevent the Nazis from oppressing the French population. Which they didn't.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 21, 2018 10:38:09 GMT -5
No. I'm claiming that they didn't prevent the Nazis from oppressing the French population. Which they didn't.
Are you claiming then that there would be no difference in this oppression if the French Resistance had guns or not?
Bob
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Post by faskew on Jun 21, 2018 10:42:15 GMT -5
I agree with both of you. Yes, the French Resistance gave valuable assistance to the Allied armies, especially just before and after the D-Day invasion, but they had little overall effect on the German occupation. If there had not been an invasion or the promise of an invasion, the French Resistance would likely have faded away. From 1940-1943, it wasn't very active. It was only in 1943, after the Germans began drafting French citizens to go work in the factories in Germany, that the French Resistance really cranked up. But even then, their efforts didn't chase the Germans out. It was poor choices by the Germans, like drafting citizens, and the promises from the Allies that an invasion was coming "real soon now, that kept the French Resistance active. Without these two events, I doubt there would have still been a Resistance by 1945.
And although many French hid their shotguns, hunting rifles, etc., it was supplies from Britain like Bren guns and other automatic weapons, plus C4 explosives and such, that provided the real firepower for the Resistance. Personal weapons have limited value in war. In WW2, the vast majority of casualties were caused by artillery and air strikes. The purpose of infantry was to locate the enemy and pin them down while the guns and crew-served weapons did the real killing. For all the casualties they produced in Europe, Allied troops could have gone in without their rifles. 8->
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 11:51:43 GMT -5
The French Resistance did a great job resisting Nazism wherever they could, but there is no indication that they ever intended to actively fight the German military in an actual open war. Quite the contrary, from the very beginning, the French Resistance cooperated with the Allies. For example, during the Normandy landing operations, the Resistance coordinated its acts of sabotage with the Allies to slow down a possible German military response. They were never under the illusion that they alone could have thrown the Germans out of France.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 21, 2018 13:12:56 GMT -5
The French Resistance did a great job resisting Nazism wherever they could, but there is no indication that they ever intended to actively fight the German military in an actual open war. Quite the contrary, from the very beginning, the French Resistance cooperated with the Allies. For example, during the Normandy landing operations, the Resistance coordinated its acts of sabotage with the Allies to slow down a possible German military response. They were never under the illusion that they alone could have thrown the Germans out of France.
Suppose the Nazis had won? Would you in that case have advised the Resistance movements to give up?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2018 15:19:50 GMT -5
What does this have to do with 3D printing again?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 21, 2018 21:19:28 GMT -5
What does this have to do with 3D printing again?
What does what you said earlier in this thread, "Of course, the idea that personal ownership of small firearms meaningfully prevents a hypothetical tyranny from oppressing you is a complete fantasy in the first place." have to do with 3D printing. I was just responding to your digression.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 11:48:22 GMT -5
The technology to manufacture ammunition for firearms has not changed in the last 50 years, and since the last century, the killer branches of the government (military, police, secret services) have only grown more proficient in fighting insurgents.
Due to its experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq, the US Army in particular has placed a strong emphasis on training and equipping its troops in urban warfare, and anti-insurgency training has become commonplace for militaries all over the Western worl since the late 1990s.
Since 1970, almost every police force in the Western world has created its own branch of paramilitary anti-terrorist units. Since the War on Terror, surveillance of dissident factions and anti-government forces has intensified and grown in scale all over the world.
These are all factors that speak against the idea that civilian individuals will successfully resist a tyrannical government through force of arms.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 23, 2018 12:49:59 GMT -5
The technology to manufacture ammunition for firearms has not changed in the last 50 years, and since the last century, the killer branches of the government (military, police, secret services) have only grown more proficient in fighting insurgents.
Due to its experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq, the US Army in particular has placed a strong emphasis on training and equipping its troops in urban warfare, and anti-insurgency training has become commonplace for militaries all over the Western worl since the late 1990s.
Since 1970, almost every police force in the Western world has created its own branch of paramilitary anti-terrorist units. Since the War on Terror, surveillance of dissident factions and anti-government forces has intensified and grown in scale all over the world.
These are all factors that speak against the idea that civilian individuals will successfully resist a tyrannical government through force of arms.
Hopefully, there will be a lot of individuals and they will be organized. Annd then, there is the "Twitter Revolution."
They were successful in overthrowing regimes in Egypt and Tunisia
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 12:57:03 GMT -5
Like your articles say, they didn't resist their governments through force of arms., and the deciding factor there was organization and communication between protesters, not homemade guns or ammunition.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 24, 2018 20:20:38 GMT -5
Like your articles say, they didn't resist their governments through force of arms., and the deciding factor there was organization and communication between protesters, not homemade guns or ammunition.
Imagine then what they could have done with guns and ammunition in addition to the organization and technology.
Bob
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