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Post by debutante on Mar 15, 2018 14:35:08 GMT -5
Lily,
I think my perspective is different because most of the people I've known in my life are doctors. After a point, you form pretty solid opinions on what a doctor should be like (as opposed to a lot of what is "out there".)
Dr. Kreizler represents that portion of doctors I would file under "physician heal thyself". He's entirely too damaged to be treating patients, as he has some narcissistic traits that interfere with his ability to show anyone true empathy. I realize he is a fictional character -- but it is for this quality of character I am not drawn to him. I can pity him for whatever made him the way he is -- but that doesn't give him the right to abuse others (as in the case of the secretary physically, or emotionally in the way he snidely treats his artist friend as being "less than").
I imagine this is more glaring obvious to me because at the present time my husband is planning to retire. He has begun to inform his patients of this fact and we have had people bursting into tears in the office because they don't want him to leave them. Now knowing how sweet natured my husband can be (he'd make Macrus Welby MD seem insensitive by comparison)-- I can understand how they feel. But he can't work forever.
Anyhow -- the point is -- can you imagine any of Kreizler's patients sobbing if he were to announce his retirement? LOL! Not likely -- the man is robotic in his interactions with people. Very disturbing demeanor.
I didn't care for the secretary because I have a problem with women who have an obvious chip on their shoulder. My best friend in high school was that way. And although you can deal with it for awhile eventually it becomes wearying. And the character isn't developed enough for us to know why she has this enormous "women's lib" chip riding on her back. Does she have a brother her parent's favored? Does she wish she was male? I really don't care for her abrasive attitude enough to discover the answer to those questions. She reminds me too much of my high school friend (who I parted company with when she pushed me too far one day).
Of the three major characters -- the artist is the most guileless. He genuinely cares for people, for the situation, and although he finds himself over his head frequently -- he does attempt to maintain his moral code despite circumstances. But the point is -- he has one. I am not altogether sure the others do -- or if they do -- it's extremely flexible for them.
After the final two episodes, I will make it my business to read the book. I suspect strongly that a lot has been lost in translation. My impressions hint at a lot of underlying pathology in both the doctor and secretary that isn't being revealed in the television adaptation. Perhaps it's in the book -- but the series hints at all this deep stuff -- but doesn't really deliver.
--Debutante
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2018 0:15:35 GMT -5
So much of how we think about things is really based on our experiences. That's why there are so many different opinions out there.
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Post by faskew on Mar 16, 2018 7:18:28 GMT -5
Experiences and knowledge. Unfortunately, knowledge is not uniformly distributed. So even though "we" know more about how the universe and the world really work, there are still billions of people trapped in ignorance. Much of the current chaos in our Federal government is because several evangelicals have been placed in positions of authority. Their personal religious beliefs would get them classified as mentally ill as individuals, but because their beliefs come from a larger group, they are tolerated. So we get things like Ben Carson saying that the pyramids of Egypt were built by Joseph to store grain. It's possible to be both extremely educated and extremely ignorant. Sigh.
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Post by debutante on Mar 20, 2018 4:16:16 GMT -5
Penultimate episode:SPOILERS
How odd it was to have the title character "benched" for most of this episode. He appears briefly at Mary's funeral and in a second scene depicting his grief at losing his budding "relationship."
His absence on the case is due to "giving up" [because he feels guilty that his involvement led to Mary's death and fears further involvement may cost him another "associate".]
Again it is primarily the Sarah show, as she talks the team into continuing the search for the suspect without the doctor. They eventually locate his lodgings where enough physical evidence is found to determine they have the right man [a heart in a valentine shaped candy box and a jar eyeballs.
On another front, the black gentleman who works for the doctor apparently intends to seek revenge on the man reponsible for Mary's death. He stalks the ex-policeman with a knife while he is in an outhouse, but is prevented from following through due to the arrival of a small boy who also wants to use the facilities. I've no doubt he intends to continue stalking his target until he eventually succeeds.
The young boy who has been consulted by the group all along is given money by the artist to keep him off the streets during the "danger period" of the upcoming holy day. Unfortunately, the boy is robbed of this by an older boy while in the bath house. Once he discovers this, he returns [presmably to recover the cash] and walks in on a murder in progress. The older boy is being carved up and this young lad is clever enough to realize it's time to run.
Why he doesn't exit the building and chooses to hide in a locker escapes me. He had plenty of time to get free. But hide he does-- panting and breathing heavily and trying to hold back tears. He peeks under the door to see the murderer dragging a bloody naked corpse. His hysteria grows as he notes the blood tracks on the floor. Suddenly, the door to his hiding place jerks open!!!
And the episode ends.
Now this was actually a very exciting episode although I can't say it helped me identify the murderer. If we have already seen him at some point, I still have no idea who it is. Oddly, this episode has enough in it that I felt satisfied. It was very well written.
I still wonder why the writers chose to leave the doctor out of it.
--Debutante
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Post by faskew on Mar 20, 2018 8:02:29 GMT -5
Boy hiding - It seems to be a common trope in entertainment (a bad one). Instead of getting away from Bad Guys by running outside, victims try to hide in obvious places or they run up stairs and are trapped on the roof. Yes, fear can make people temporarily stupid (panic), but it's difficult to have sympathy with such characters.
My favorite cry to the Bad Guys (Please kill this idiot and get it over with!) comes when the victim is being chased on a road by someone in a car. The victim tries to run faster than the car, when there are perfectly good buildings or trees just a couple of steps to the side - places which the car cannot go. I can only hope that if someone ever tries to kill me, they do it with a car in a thick forest. Two steps to the side, and I'm safe. LOL
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Post by raybar on Mar 20, 2018 22:52:45 GMT -5
Yeah, Joseph hiding in a locker (dressing room?) was annoying since he could have just gone back the way he came and left the building. It's not as if he was trapped or lost and hiding was his only option. I also (and always) find it hard to accept characters who can't be quiet when the one and only thing they need to do is be quiet. Next week, in true cliff-hanger style, we will learn whether the door was opened by the killer (as is the implication) or not.
I have been wondering why Kreizler is crippled and Mary is mute. (Did I miss some explanatory details in dialog?) I suppose these themes are explored in the novel. In the series, however, they are nothing but a distraction. There could have been a major subplot about two damaged people making a life together despite (or because of) their difficulties. Or that could have been the main story, with the murder investigation just being the setting - - like a love story that just happens to be set in a war. Yes, they are finally addressing Kreizler's arm, but it's a little late in the series to start a new subplot.
It's pretty clear that Beecham (or someone calling himself Beecham) is the killer. Except for a brief scene in the brothel with Stevie (if that was him), and several fleeting glances, we haven't met him yet. We will next week in the finale, but the few minutes of screen time he is likely to get will be insufficient to convey to the audience any sense of his personality or motivations or the personal hell that drove him to ritual murder. A few lines of explanation from Kreizler at the end won't be the same as spending time with Beecham over the course of the series.
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Post by debutante on Mar 21, 2018 1:57:19 GMT -5
Raybar,
I'm pretty sure Joseph is dead meat. They're going to need something drastic enough as an "incentive" to galvanize the doctor out of his present state of mind. So it seems that the death of the boy they've grown fond of would be that catalyst. I can't think of anything else that would suffice at this point.
I don't think the killer will turn out to be anyone we've seen -- or if so, it was someone in the background we wouldn't have noticed. I don't know how they're going to wrap up all these loose strings. The writers were very ambitious in terms of opening up avenues but with only one episode remaining -- I don't think we will be satisfied in terms of having all our questions answered.
--Debutante
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Post by faskew on Mar 21, 2018 8:11:39 GMT -5
It may be a false memory, but I thought that in the previews for next week, they were looking for the boy. Indicating that he had bee taken, but no body found. Not sure how they would know that he was taken by the bad guys, since a kid living on the streets might just as likely be in one place as another.
Anyway, that's what I remember. 8->
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joan
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Post by joan on Mar 22, 2018 7:54:30 GMT -5
TV Guide is calling Monday's episode a Season, not Series, finale. There is speculation for a second time around with these characters.
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Post by raybar on Mar 22, 2018 9:44:21 GMT -5
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joan
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Post by joan on Mar 22, 2018 10:58:30 GMT -5
Yes, I have seen the entries for the show in the current edition, not the online but the actual magazine. Twice it was described as Season finale--in the daily listings and in the highlights for the week. There was no explanation about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 13:08:14 GMT -5
It seems even limited episode series seem to be called Season 1 and it hardly ever gets continued. Does anyone remember that happening? I do remember one time when it did happen with Wayward Pines. But it wasn't very good. Too bad because I really liked the original 10 episode series.
For The Alienist, I do hope there's a season 2, but I'd hate to have to wait too long a time for it.
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Post by faskew on Mar 22, 2018 15:15:18 GMT -5
Hey, I need time to read the books before the next season. I've gone from 34 down to 22 on the library's Hold list. Only another month or two to go. LOL
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 17:01:20 GMT -5
Hey, I need time to read the books before the next season. I've gone from 34 down to 22 on the library's Hold list. Only another month or two to go. LOL LOL! But, hey. The progress I'm making with the book, you'll probably have gotten your kindle copies, read them all, before I finish even half of my copy. It's not that I'm not liking it; it's just that there is also so much else to do.
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Post by debutante on Mar 26, 2018 21:07:44 GMT -5
FINAL EPISODE --IMPRESSIONS -- NO SPOILERS
Some questions answered. Strangely anti-climatic. Oddly dissatisfying after last week's build up.
--Debutante
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Post by raybar on Mar 27, 2018 19:04:59 GMT -5
Anti-climatic? Yes. Dissatisfying. Yes2
It's just unbelievable that Kreizler would let half the police go to one location with Sara, and the other half go to another location with Roosevelt, and then go to a third location himself - - Croton Distributing Reservoir (a formerly real but long gone facility) - - where he really thinks the killer will be. Just Kreizler and Moore without any police or guns. Did he think Beecham would surrender quietly if he asked nicely? Lucky thing Connor followed them there, arriving just in the nick of time to shoot Beecham and save Kreizler. But then Connor thought maybe he should kill everybody. Lucky thing Sara abandoned her assignment and arrived at the reservoir just in the nick of time to distract him from shooting Kriezler, who he had just saved from Beecham. Lucky thing Sara brought a gun along so she could save herself by shooting Connor.
Give me a break.
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Post by debutante on Mar 27, 2018 19:35:29 GMT -5
Raybar:
My husband and I were left wondering what Connor's issue was -- that he decided he was going to kill everybody and say he arrived "too late to save them".
I didn't care for the fact that the killer dies before any explanations are given as to what made him choose these particular boys as victims.
It just seemed a very fizzled out ending to what promised [last week] to be an exciting conclusion.
I turned to my husband and remarked, "Is that all there is?" He replied, "I think it's done." [This was at the supposed resolution of the case when the final shot was fired]. It really fell flat.
--Debutante
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Post by faskew on Mar 28, 2018 7:44:31 GMT -5
I haven't read the book yet, so I don't know whether it's as poorly written as this script. That is, I don't know whether the script writers were locked in to certain stupid things because they were in the book, or whether the writers chose to add them on their own. At any rate, it seems to be a tale told by idiots, full of gloom and confusion, signifying nothing. 8->
And I keep thinking of the poor street kids, starving, selling their bodies for food, and dying of TB, pneumonia, STDs, etc. Maybe the ones who were brutally murdered were the lucky ones. 8-<
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 10:55:56 GMT -5
I'm not reading any of your comments about this last episode because I'm only half-way through it so far. I'll finish it this morning sometime.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 16:40:55 GMT -5
I disagree with all of you. I thought it was a great ending. As for Kreizler, it made sense because it showed how deeply he needs to understand why people do things. And the normal brain still didn't answer the question. That is his life's purpose.
It sounds like the difference between me and some of you is that I'm seeing it between the lines and under the surface. This isn't just a "cops and robbers" criminal thing to me.
I don't have time to write more now, but I'll reference some of your complaints later when I have time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 20:56:07 GMT -5
Raybar: My husband and I were left wondering what Connor's issue was -- that he decided he was going to kill everybody and say he arrived "too late to save them". I didn't care for the fact that the killer dies before any explanations are given as to what made him choose these particular boys as victims. It just seemed a very fizzled out ending to what promised [last week] to be an exciting conclusion. I turned to my husband and remarked, "Is that all there is?" He replied, "I think it's done." [This was at the supposed resolution of the case when the final shot was fired]. It really fell flat. --Debutante I think Connor's issue is that he was fired by Roosevelt and he didn't like it, and suddenly he had the opportunity for revenge, even though his first purpose was to be held out as a hero. But the worst of him took him over. And as I said, the reason for the killing wasn't going to help anything anyway. Kreizler pretty much knew what it was. He told us. I didn't think it was a fizzled out ending at all. What about the touching part where Kreizler gifted the ring meant for Mary to John Moore for someone he may come to love just as Lazlow loved Mary? I don't think their relationship was a fledgling thing. It was real and was just waiting for Kriezler to finally acknowledge and accept it for himself. It did not in any way fall flat for me. If there does happen to be a Season 2, I think there is much there already to make it worthwhile. I really hope there is a Season 2.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2018 21:00:54 GMT -5
Anti-climatic? Yes. Dissatisfying. Yes 2It's just unbelievable that Kreizler would let half the police go to one location with Sara, and the other half go to another location with Roosevelt, and then go to a third location himself - - Croton Distributing Reservoir (a formerly real but long gone facility) - - where he really thinks the killer will be. Just Kreizler and Moore without any police or guns. Did he think Beecham would surrender quietly if he asked nicely? Lucky thing Connor followed them there, arriving just in the nick of time to shoot Beecham and save Kreizler. But then Connor thought maybe he should kill everybody. Lucky thing Sara abandoned her assignment and arrived at the reservoir just in the nick of time to distract him from shooting Kriezler, who he had just saved from Beecham. Lucky thing Sara brought a gun along so she could save herself by shooting Connor. Give me a break. I don't agree. As I said, I consider this more than just a crime story where the most important thing is finding out who did it. You have to consider the drama as well, which held my interest most of all. Your mileage may differ, but I liked it.
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Post by raybar on Mar 29, 2018 10:55:07 GMT -5
I agree, Lily. You have to consider both the story and the drama between characters.
Regardless of the plot line, stories are about people. It's always a story about what people do in some situation. It's the drama between the characters that drives the story forward. Without it, you don't have a story worth telling or worth hearing. At the same time, the overall story in which the drama occurs has to hold together. You need a plausible chain of events. Characters need to be realistic and they need to act credibly.
I liked "The Alienist" well enough to watch all ten episodes, but it didn't quite work for me. I don't think the series did justice to either the main story line or to the characters.
For example - -
- - I would have preferred that the details of Kreizler's injury, and of Sara's last moments with her father, had been revealed earlier so these themes could have been explored in subsequent episodes. The finale is a little late for bombshells like "my father crippled me" and "I helped my father kill himself" - - unless the producers are hoping the network will order another season.
- - I would have preferred to meet Beecham earlier. What was he doing for the four months of the story? Was he on a mission from god? Was he tormented by what he was doing?
- - It would have been nice to know what was driving Connor. A police captain becoming a serial murderer needs a little explanation.
- - It would have been nice to know what was driving Willem. Mama's boy gone bad? Just crazy from syphilis? What he had done that made him an early suspect?
- - It would have been nice to see more of Isaacson and what's-her-name? Is this a romantic theme for season 2?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2018 11:18:04 GMT -5
Raybar, I think most of what you are questioning is really the result of a limited 10-episode series. If this was a normal on-going series, there would have been the luxury of time to develop the characters and the investigation.
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joan
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Post by joan on Mar 29, 2018 13:52:28 GMT -5
Then how did the movie Gone with the Wind (4&1/2 hrs) capture the spirit of a 1,000 page book so valiantly?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2018 16:52:07 GMT -5
Did it really? Anyway, I'm not asking someone to agree with me. I'm just giving my opinion about why I liked it in opposition to those who didn't. EXPLANATIONS! Otherwise, why should I even bother to be here?
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Post by raybar on Mar 29, 2018 18:38:49 GMT -5
Raybar, I think most of what you are questioning is really the result of a limited 10-episode series. If this was a normal on-going series, there would have been the luxury of time to develop the characters and the investigation. Yeah, that might be it - advertising a single season but writing with a second in mind. Or perhaps the writers retained too many subplots when they condensed the novel into a series of scripts.
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