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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2017 13:22:32 GMT -5
Which do you believe predominates with humans in general when making decisions or judgments--reason or feelings?
Which do you think predominates in yourself?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2017 15:33:30 GMT -5
I think habit wins out against either of the two. Feelings and reasoning both influence our decisions and how we justify them to ourselves afterwards, but I don't think either are a dominant factor.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2017 20:09:05 GMT -5
Yes, I agree that both reason and feelings work together, but I just wondered which is really predominate in people in general. My thought was that it's predominately feelings because I reasoned (haha) that pre-humans, even with some early reasoning power, wouldn't have survived if they had to stop and reason about every kind of danger they might encounter. I did some research to find what I could about my hypothesis. I can't really say for sure what predominates now, but my opinion is that feelings come first and then rational thinking works like a gate keeper to keep us from doing stupid things and also from making bad decisions. I agree that habits do affect what we do, but what is habit but doing something to being with and then keep doing it. But why did it start to begin with? Was it feelings or reason? Some habits are positive but some can be really destructive. That's my take on this question.
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 14, 2017 20:37:51 GMT -5
The question still remains: Which do you think should predominate when making decisions? Feelings or Reason?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2017 20:43:49 GMT -5
The question still remains: Which do you think should predominate when making decisions? Feelings or Reason? Bob But that wasn't the question. That would be a whole other topic and thread. Would you like to start one? Also, should AND could are also involved here when you put it that way. On second thought, if you want to continue that question on this thread, I'm game for it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2017 21:28:59 GMT -5
Here's something along those lines, Bob.
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 14, 2017 22:40:56 GMT -5
Here's something along those lines, Bob. Lily, if decisions are emotional, not logical, then every decision the author of that article made was also "emotional, not logical." Therefore, every claim made in that article was based on emotion, not logic. So why should any of those claims be taken seriously? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2017 23:17:19 GMT -5
Well, you're going to argue with neuroscience, not me. That seems to upset you.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 5:36:13 GMT -5
Bob, do you think emotional decisions shouldn't be taken seriously?
As for Lily's argument, I believe that another function of reason is to, well, provide reasons for our decisions, justifications after the fact why we did what we did.
Emotions I see as the driving force that influences our choices and habits.
But I think you should also be careful not to box yourself in conceptually by looking at the decision making process as a singular event. Those big life changing decisions are framed and delineated by thousands of small actions that we often don't really think about - and I think often those frames and delineations play a big part in how we decide.
An important element of manipulating people is to frame decisions - effectively hiding possible courses of action while still leaving people the freedom to choose for themselves. Like Coke vs Pepsi - you have a choice, but the important choice has already been made in your head when you started to believe that your decision should only come down to those two items.
That is an area where I think reason is important - to be able to step back and reflect on how your decision is framed, and whether we should keep that frame or change it. It's what I value in philosophy - being a tool to examine this frame and changing or fixing it if necessary.
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Post by faskew on Oct 15, 2017 11:01:53 GMT -5
Emotions determine what we like and don't like, want and don't want. We then use reason to do things to get what we want or to avoid things we don't want.
You see a fish in a pond. "Hungry. Want fish." All emotion. But how do you catch that fish? Jump in the water and grab fish?(emotion). Or make a net? (reason).
So emotions are the main source of what we do and why we do it, but reason can be a tool for HOW we do things. (Doesn't have to be. Some people have very poor impulse control and act purely on emotion almost all the time.)
And there is a very large cultural bias that favors emotion over reason. (Luke, feel the Force.) Politicians and sales people can't be successful with dry facts. They have to evoke emotions in their customers. Manipulating emotions is the path to success, not knowledge. 8->
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 15, 2017 12:32:26 GMT -5
Well, you're going to argue with neuroscience, not me. That seems to upset you. I am not arguing with neuroscience. I am simply pointing out that the article you posted is incoherent. If every decision we make is based on emotion, not logic, then all the statements made in that article are based on emotion, not logic. But is they are based on emotion, then they are not scientific. Therefore that article is not based on science. This is simple logic. Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 15, 2017 12:47:20 GMT -5
Bob, do you think emotional decisions shouldn't be taken seriously? That is a very general question. Do you have any specific emotional decisions in mind? Could you please give some examples here? Classic Hume. Hume once wrote "'Tis not contrary to the dictates of reason, to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my little finger." (Quoted by Searle in Rationality in Action, pg.28) Can you picture a world leader making that claim, especially one whose country had nuclear weapons? Influences, yes. Determines, no. I don't drink colas at all. They are bad for the general health, and they rot your teeth. In that case, isn't reason more than the mere servant of emotions? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 12:49:39 GMT -5
Well, you're going to argue with neuroscience, not me. That seems to upset you. I am not arguing with neuroscience. I am simply pointing out that the article you posted is incoherent. If every decision we make is based on emotion, not logic, then all the statements made in that article are based on emotion, not logic. But is they are based on emotion, then they are not scientific. Therefore that article is not based on science. This is simple logic. Bob The article is NOT saying that every DECISION is BASED on emotion. The only incoherence here is yours. You keep telling Mcans that he hasn't read your articles. If you really want to argue, then show me where in the article it says every decision is based on emotion because I don't believe that you really read it except with biased eyes.
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 15, 2017 12:53:44 GMT -5
Emotions determine what we like and don't like, want and don't want. We then use reason to do things to get what we want or to avoid things we don't want. You see a fish in a pond. "Hungry. Want fish." All emotion. But how do you catch that fish? Jump in the water and grab fish?(emotion). Or make a net? (reason). So emotions are the main source of what we do and why we do it, but reason can be a tool for HOW we do things. (Doesn't have to be. Some people have very poor impulse control and act purely on emotion almost all the time.) What you call emotion, I would call Human Nature. Hungary? Well to get rid of that hunger pain, you have to eat (reason). Emotion has nothing to do with it. Eating to get rid of hunger pains is logical. But knowing that manipulating emotions is the path to success is simply the resutl of perception, not emotion. Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 15, 2017 12:56:38 GMT -5
I am not arguing with neuroscience. I am simply pointing out that the article you posted is incoherent. If every decision we make is based on emotion, not logic, then all the statements made in that article are based on emotion, not logic. But is they are based on emotion, then they are not scientific. Therefore that article is not based on science. This is simple logic. Bob The article is NOT saying that every DECISION is BASED on emotion. The only incoherence here is yours. You keep telling Mcans that he hasn't read your articles. If you really want to argue, then show me where in the article it says every decision is based on emotion because I don't believe that you really read it except with biased eyes. The article did say it, right here: "They’re doomed to fail, however, because decision-making isn’t logical, it’s emotional, according to the latest findings in neuroscience." Notice that they didn't say "some decisions." They said "decision making" and that means all decisions. So you see Lily, I did read the article. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 13:31:08 GMT -5
Why did you pick on one sentence when the explanation was right there in the article? Emotions are "very important" for choosing what decisions to make--"at the point of decision." You are aware that the different parts of the brain have different functions? When someone has a stroke and certain parts of the brain are damaged, depending on where it is, the person has behavioral changes. Both parts of the brain have to work together. The discovery that neuroscientist Antonio Damasio had was that when the emotional part of the brain is damaged decision making is very difficult or impossible. You think rational is so important? Well, the discovery was that rational alone does not cut it. So, Bob, if you want to believe emotions have no part in decision making, go ahead. You'll be wrong, but what's one more.
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 15, 2017 13:46:58 GMT -5
Why did you pick on one sentence when the explanation was right there in the article? I picked that sentence because you asked me to, right here: " The article is NOT saying that every DECISION is BASED on emotion. The only incoherence here is yours. You keep telling Mcans that he hasn't read your articles. If you really want to argue, then show me where in the article it says every decision is based on emotion because I don't believe that you really read it except with biased eyes." Emotions are "very important" for choosing what decisions to make--"at the point of decision." You are aware that the different parts of the brain have different functions? When someone has a stroke and certain parts of the brain are damaged, depending on where it is, the person has behavioral changes. Both parts of the brain have to work together. The discovery that neuroscientist Antonio Damasio had was that when the emotional part of the brain is damaged decision making is very difficult or impossible. You think rational is so important? Well, the discovery was that rational alone does not cut it. So, Bob, if you want to believe emotions have no part in decision making, go ahead. You'll be wrong, but what's one more. [/quote] Lily, I never said that emotions play no part in decision making. What I object to is the article's claim that all decisions are emotion based. If that were true, then Damasio couldn't have had conversations with those brain-damaged people because they couldn't decide what words to use. Yet he said that these people seemed normal. That's a contradiction right there. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 13:58:51 GMT -5
So was that decision to write that post logical or emotional? Logical would be to say that, Lily, I believe you are wrong, and I've posted my reasons. If you don't agree, then that's your problem.
If you're going to make your judgement on one sentence, then that's your decision to make and I no longer give a damn. And that, Bob, was me making a decision based on emotion. And when I don't give a damn about something, I go do something else.
What gets me is how making decisions based on feelings bother you so much.
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Post by faskew on Oct 15, 2017 14:47:22 GMT -5
Emotions are based on bodily needs. Hunger, fear of pain, the comfort of touch, etc. What to do about that hunger (I can have lunch in an hour, but I have to wait), is a rational path to dealing with that bodily function.
We're essentially clever apes who have a complex set of herd (societal) rules that help prevent us from being alone. We can use our cleverness to solve some kinds of problems, but the choice of which problems we choose to solve is based on our lizard/ape brain's priorities. In other words, rational thought is a tool we sometimes use after our emotions tell us what we want to do.
Unfortunately, not everyone trusts rational thought. I have a half-sister whose life has been made miserable by her living as much as is possible by emotion and avoiding rational thought as much as is possible. Sigh.
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 15, 2017 19:00:04 GMT -5
So was that decision to write that post logical or emotional? Logical would be to say that, Lily, I believe you are wrong, and I've posted my reasons. If you don't agree, then that's your problem. But I do believe you are wrong here, and I did post my reasons. That one sentence summed up everything else in the article. The author believes that all decisions are based on emotion. No exceptions. There is nothing he wrote in the ret of the article that contradicts what he said in that sentence. I've seen too many cases of people who based their decisions on feelings and who lived to regret it. Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 15, 2017 20:03:58 GMT -5
Emotions are based on bodily needs. Hunger, fear of pain, the comfort of touch, etc. What to do about that hunger (I can have lunch in an hour, but I have to wait), is a rational path to dealing with that bodily function. We're essentially clever apes who have a complex set of herd (societal) rules that help prevent us from being alone. We can use our cleverness to solve some kinds of problems, but the choice of which problems we choose to solve is based on our lizard/ape brain's priorities. In other words, rational thought is a tool we sometimes use after our emotions tell us what we want to do. No Fred, not our emotions. Our needs. It is a simple fact that we have to eat to stay alive. That is part of Human Nature. Basically, our choice is: Do I want to stay alive or not. If someone wants to stay alive (and that is the default choice in our genes) then they have to eat, and drink, and sleep. Our next choice is: Do I make my choices based on emotions or on rational thought? Which one generally works out better? I rest my case. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 20:13:37 GMT -5
Okay, here is Antonio Damasio without the author you detest so much. If you still don't believe that emotions have nothing to do with making decisions, then I just don't care anymore.
Antonio Damasio, noted researcher and professor of neuroscience at USC, explains how emotions are integral to decision-making. He discusses his experiences working with people with brain damage who are unable to decide things as simple as where to go to dinner.
Antonio Damasio, noted researcher and professor of neuroscience at USC, talks with The New York Times' David Brooks about emotions and the science of being human. He describes the difference between emotions and feelings, and explains why emotions are one of humanity's most important survival mechanisms. - Aspen Institute
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 15, 2017 20:19:36 GMT -5
Why did you pick on one sentence when the explanation was right there in the article? Emotions are "very important" for choosing what decisions to make--"at the point of decision." You are aware that the different parts of the brain have different functions? When someone has a stroke and certain parts of the brain are damaged, depending on where it is, the person has behavioral changes. Both parts of the brain have to work together. The discovery that neuroscientist Antonio Damasio had was that when the emotional part of the brain is damaged decision making is very difficult or impossible. You think rational is so important? Well, the discovery was that rational alone does not cut it. So, Bob, if you want to believe emotions have no part in decision making, go ahead. You'll be wrong, but what's one more. Lily, please re-read what I said in previous posts. I NEVER said that emotions play no part. What I objected to is the author's claim that all decisions are emotion based. He even repeated it in that excerpt you just posted. Take a look at his last sentence: "In fact, even with what we believe are logical decisions, the very point of choice is always based on emotions." That means his decision to claim that his results are accurate is based on his emotions, not logic. Since his claims are not logical, why should anyone believe him? I just noticed something else. In that last sentence, he says the point of choice is arguably always based on emotions. He didn't say definitely[/i]. Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 15, 2017 20:22:41 GMT -5
Okay, here is Antonio Damasio without the author you detest so much. If you still don't believe that emotions have nothing to do with making decisions, then I just don't care anymore. Antonio Damasio, noted researcher and professor of neuroscience at USC, explains how emotions are integral to decision-making. He discusses his experiences working with people with brain damage who are unable to decide things as simple as where to go to dinner. Antonio Damasio, noted researcher and professor of neuroscience at USC, talks with The New York Times' David Brooks about emotions and the science of being human. He describes the difference between emotions and feelings, and explains why emotions are one of humanity's most important survival mechanisms. - Aspen Institute I NEVER said that emotions have nothing to do with making decisions. I said they can't be the main factor. If they are, then science is impossible, because science is based on facts and logic, not emotions. Don't you get it? If what they say is true, then they have contradicted themselves because they are saying their conclusions are illogical. Their claim is incoherent. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 20:28:35 GMT -5
Fine. I really don't give a rip.
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 15, 2017 20:30:13 GMT -5
Fine. I really don't give a rip. Apparently, the researchers didn't give a rip either. If they had, they would have seen that their conclusions are incoherent. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 20:32:11 GMT -5
Fine, you're the unheralded genius. And I still don't give a rip.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 20:45:30 GMT -5
Bob, if you watched the video, you would have noticed that Antonio Damasio never said that emotions were the main factor in making decisions. That's why I posted the video that you could get the correct idea from the horse's mouth instead of from the article which I do agree was unclear in explaining what the research really said. But he did say that without the emotional part of the brain, it's practically impossible to "come to decisions' not that emotions are the main factor in deciding what the decisions are that are made.Do you see the difference now? Now, if you watched the video, will you concede that emotions play an important factor even if it's not the "main" one?
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Post by rmarks1 on Oct 15, 2017 20:58:33 GMT -5
Bob, if you watched the video, you would have noticed that Antonio Damasio never said that emotions were the main factor in making decisions. That's why I posted the video that you could get the correct idea from the horse's mouth instead of from the article which I do agree was unclear in explaining what the research really said. But he did say that without the emotional part of the brain, it's practically impossible to "come to decisions' not that emotions are the main factor in deciding what the decisions are that are made.Do you see the difference now? Now, if you watched the video, will you concede that emotions play an important factor even if it's not the "main" one? I just watched the video again. Yes, you are right Lily. He did say that it is practically impossible to come to decisions. He did not say that all our decisions are based on emotions, like that idiot author did. That article was what I was complaining about. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 21:05:14 GMT -5
Bob, if you watched the video, you would have noticed that Antonio Damasio never said that emotions were the main factor in making decisions. That's why I posted the video that you could get the correct idea from the horse's mouth instead of from the article which I do agree was unclear in explaining what the research really said. But he did say that without the emotional part of the brain, it's practically impossible to "come to decisions' not that emotions are the main factor in deciding what the decisions are that are made.Do you see the difference now? Now, if you watched the video, will you concede that emotions play an important factor even if it's not the "main" one? I just watched the video again. Yes, you are right Lily. He did say that it is practically impossible to come to decisions. He did not say that all our decisions are based on emotions, like that idiot author did. That article was what I was complaining about. Bob Okay, good. I'm glad we finally agree.
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