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Post by Roger (over and out) on Apr 12, 2014 19:25:13 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 21:31:48 GMT -5
What do you yourself think, Blarney?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 12, 2014 23:10:08 GMT -5
Nothing new here. I've heard this crap for years and it just isn't true.
They said the same thing about IBM before 1975. It dominated the computer business. No one else had a chance. That is until Microsoft came along. Then they said the same thing about Microsoft. They were going to own the whole market. Enter Google. Now they are saying the same thing about Google.
Back in the 1950's, they said the same thing about General Motors (which only avoided going out of business in 2009 because of a government bailout). They also said the same thing about U.S. Steel. They had to undergo drastic downsizing in the 1980's in order to survive.
How about Kodak? Who could have beat them in the film business? How about mobile phone companies who put a camera in every phone!
In short, this dummy is not looking at the real world. In the real world, old companies get stuck in their ways, and new companies develop whole new technologies that send the former champions packing. The free market is the most dynamic and productive economic system ever. No other system even comes close.
Bob
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Apr 12, 2014 23:13:27 GMT -5
So post that on The Guardian.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 14, 2014 15:07:41 GMT -5
So post that on The Guardian. I did.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Apr 14, 2014 16:14:27 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 9:08:56 GMT -5
Nothing new here. I've heard this crap for years and it just isn't true. Have you actually looked at Piketty's research? He's been using data that has been largely neglected by macroeconomic research until recently (specifically, tax and property records). Also, he is not talking about private companies, he is talking about wealth and income structures in Western societies. It's a fact that the economic gap between the wealthy elites and the majority population has been steadily increasing over the years. Piketty's point is that this is a natural progression from the way property is distributed, and the only reason we've experienced the reverse between 1945 and 1975 were extraordinary interventionist measures to curtail that progression, measures that have been steadily repealed from the 1970s onward.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 9:14:38 GMT -5
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2014 11:16:32 GMT -5
Nothing new here. I've heard this crap for years and it just isn't true. Have you actually looked at Piketty's research? He's been using data that has been largely neglected by macroeconomic research until recently (specifically, tax and property records). Also, he is not talking about private companies, he is talking about wealth and income structures in Western societies. It's a fact that the economic gap between the wealthy elites and the majority population has been steadily increasing over the years. Piketty's point is that this is a natural progression from the way property is distributed, and the only reason we've experienced the reverse between 1945 and 1975 were extraordinary interventionist measures to curtail that progression, measures that have been steadily repealed from the 1970s onward. Yes. And my question is still the same? What's so bad about income inequality? The implication of Piketty's work is that the economy is some sort of fixed quantity and that if some are getting more, others must be getting less. What he fails to take into account is economic growth. The economic pie is not fixed. It is getting larger. He also fails to take technological advances into account. How many people had computers or cell phones in the 1950's? None. BTW, back in the 1950's, there was a book titled "The Empire of High Finance" by Victor Perlo. His claim was that wealth was being concentrated greatly in the hands of a few ultra-wealthy families. Like I say, I've heard this crap for years. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 13:02:32 GMT -5
Bob, as a Libertarian, what is your viewpoin on globalization?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2014 13:44:21 GMT -5
Also, the Guardian's headline is sensationalist and misleading. The gist of what Piketty actually says in his book is this: Why should we care? In the 19th century, there was also a popular saying: "From shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in 3 generations." The 1st generation works hard and becomes rich. The 2nd generation wastes their inheritance. The 3rd generation is back working in shirtsleeves. Can you picture how often this must have happened for this to become a popular saying? There is no guarantee that people who inherit wealth will be able to keep it. On top of that, it is now becoming popular (in this country at least) for rich people to will their money to charities instead of to their children. Gloria Vanderbilt is a case in point. Warren Buffet is another. But what harm is done if rich people give their wealth to their children anyway? No crime is involved. No one is being robbed. It seems that the only complaint here is envy. * The best solution would be a globally coordinated effort to tax wealth. www.vox.com/2014/4/8/5592198/the-short-guide-to-capital-in-the-21st-century[/quote]The author has not proved that there is a problem to begin with. Therefore no "solution" is necessary. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 14:04:40 GMT -5
Bob, as a Libertarian, what is your viewpoin on globalization? Bob, I really need you to answer this question, because it's pertinent to this discussion. I know I'm not as interesting to you as the guys, but please at least try.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2014 14:10:59 GMT -5
Bob, as a Libertarian, what is your viewpoin on globalization? You mean companies shifting their production to other countries where the labor costs are cheaper? I think it's great. A lot of production has gone to India and China. Since that has happened, over 100 million Indians and 300 million Chinese have been lifted out of poverty. And when you are poor in those countries, you are really poor. I posted links on this before, several times. So what happened? The wages in China and India have started to go up. Those same companies are now starting to shift production to other countries, like Vietnam. Eventually, the same thing will happen to those countries and the companies will move again. The result is that living standards are rising all over the world. People in those countries will have more money to spend so they will buy more. That means demand for American goods will go up too. Eventually, that money comes back here. It's a win-win situation. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 14:16:50 GMT -5
So while the middle class is shrinking you feel that's perfectly fine. Companies need people who earn enough money to spend on their products, the same people they don't pay enough to do so. But no problem. Just lift up other countries and sell their products there. And you call yourself an American? I don't believe you care one little bit. At all. Nada.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 14:23:28 GMT -5
Do you not recognize exploitation when you see it?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 15:00:59 GMT -5
(There are two other posts of mine above this one. I'm saying this because they would be easy to miss.)
And from your beloved New York Times.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2014 17:22:35 GMT -5
So while the middle class is shrinking you feel that's perfectly fine. Companies need people who earn enough money to spend on their products, the same people they don't pay enough to do so. But no problem. Just lift up other countries and sell their products there. And you call yourself an American? I don't believe you care one little bit. At all. Nada. The problem is due to bad government policies. The tax burden keeps increasing. What are those companies supposed to do? Keep production here and have foreign competitors drive them out of business? Raise tariffs to keep foreign goods out? Then other countries will raise their tariffs to keep American goods out and international trade will be destroyed. The key is to keep trade open. Then people in the other countries will have enough money to buy American goods. What would your solution to this problem be Lily? Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2014 17:23:43 GMT -5
Do you not recognize exploitation when you see it? No. I'm afraid you will have to point it out to me. Where is it? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 17:25:46 GMT -5
Nonsense! Greed is greed. That's the problem. And you know very well that you consider the population nothing but the unwashed masses. My God! You're worred about Corporations and their million/billionaires? Go cry yourself a river.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 17:26:17 GMT -5
Do you not recognize exploitation when you see it? No. I'm afraid you will have to point it out to me. Where is it? Bob Look in the mirror. And by the way, you never addressed what I posted, about THE MIDDLE CLASS disappearing. But wait! Don't even try to answer, because the answer is YOU DON'T CARE.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2014 17:29:44 GMT -5
(There are two other posts of mine above this one. I'm saying this because they would be easy to miss.) And from your beloved New York Times. I've lived in New York all my life. Companies are always going out of business and are replaced by new companies. I remember the Child's restaurant chain. And Schrafts. Oh yes. The Automat. All gone now. New restaurants took their place. That happens all the time. This article wasn't a news story. It was a hysterical misinterpretation of something that has been going on for over 60 years. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 17:31:38 GMT -5
Whatever makes you feel good, Bob.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 17:32:34 GMT -5
No. I'm afraid you will have to point it out to me. Where is it? Bob Look in the mirror. And by the way, you never addressed what I posted, about THE MIDDLE CLASS disappearing. But wait! Don't even try to answer, because the answer is YOU DON'T CARE. I see you were trying to hide this post. Good try.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2014 17:33:03 GMT -5
Nonsense! Greed is greed. That's the problem. And you know very well that you consider the population nothing but the unwashed masses. My God! You're worred about Corporations and their million/billionaires? Go cry yourself a river. I don't consider the population unwashed masses at all. And I didn't say I was worried about the corporations. All I said was that they will go wherever they can get the lowest labor costs. That's true. If they didn't, they would be driven out of business by companies who do lower their labor costs. That's also true. So where is the nonsense? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 17:34:48 GMT -5
Look in the mirror. And by the way, you never addressed what I posted, about THE MIDDLE CLASS disappearing. But wait! Don't even try to answer, because the answer is YOU DON'T CARE. I see you were trying to hide this post. Good try. I reiterate the above.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2014 17:35:50 GMT -5
Look in the mirror. And by the way, you never addressed what I posted, about THE MIDDLE CLASS disappearing. But wait! Don't even try to answer, because the answer is YOU DON'T CARE. I see you were trying to hide this post. Good try. Yes. The Middle Class is disappearing because of bad policies on the part of the government. They drive businesses away. So China is now getting a middle class and we are loosing ours. If you want to change that, you have to change the bad policies of the government. Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2014 17:38:11 GMT -5
I see you were trying to hide this post. Good try. I reiterate the above. Reiterate what? You didn't give any reasons as to why you think I was wrong. And you didn't say what your solution to the problem of a disappearing middle class would be. What is your solution to the problem Lily? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 17:44:29 GMT -5
You didn't ask! Fair wages and stop taking work out of the country. Yes, companies do hire labor overseas, not only because they can get cheaper wages but they don't have to follow rules that protect workers, as we have here with OSHA. The bottom line is all they care about; how much profit they can make for the CEO's and other top guys. Bob, I get so mad at myself when I start thinking I can post and make anykind of dent in your thinking. I should know better. The Libertarian creed is look out for oneself above all and everything and whatever you can get away with, do it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 17:52:07 GMT -5
You're now free to continue and say anything, because I'm not going to keep wasting time sitting here adding to this thread when it's no different than spitting into the wind.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2014 21:14:07 GMT -5
You didn't ask! Fair wages and stop taking work out of the country. Yes, companies do hire labor overseas, not only because they can get cheaper wages but they don't have to follow rules that protect workers, as we have here with OSHA. The bottom line is all they care about; how much profit they can make for the CEO's and other top guys. First of all Lily, those workers take these jobs to avoid starvation. Giving them these jobs provides more income to them than all of the aid programs combined, and it doesn't cost the taxpayers a dime. Secondly, within a few years as the worker's skills increase, their wages go up. In China, over 300 million people have been lifted from poverty in the last 30 years. Show me a government aid program that can do that! Third, after a while, the workers organize into unions to get higher pay and better working conditions. That has happened already in China. All you have to do to make a dent in my thinking, Lily, is to calmly present facts. Are there any articles that say foreign aid to poor countries are doing wonderful things? So far, all of the articles I've seen have said the aid is ending up in the pockets of corrupt politicians. Also, could you please tell me exactly HOW we are supposed to stop work from leaving the country? All the proposed "solutions" I've seen would only make things worse. If you want to make a dent in my thinking on this matter, then please show me a good alternative. That's all it will take. Bob
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