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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2014 21:31:18 GMT -5
Good point in it being necessary to be on the same page when it comes to what is stipulated in this argument. So, in that vein, I would like to know that because of determiinism (which we argee is the same as no free will, correct?) all actions and future actions are predetermined? If not, then why wouldn't it be?
Also, regarding the mind and thinking, is the mind separate from the brain? I believe that is what Bob believes.
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Post by bfootdav on Jan 13, 2014 22:08:26 GMT -5
I tend not to equate determinism and not having free will. This is because determinism is usually thought of at the subatomic level -- is the universe inherently random (like quantum physics) or not (a deterministic physics underlying quantum physics)? Whereas as I've couched the debate in terms of the causal relationship between brain, mind, and thoughts/decisions. The fundamental randomness, or lack thereof, of the universe being irrelevant to the issue.
So to answer your questions as best I can. If the universe is deterministic and we do not have conscious free will then given perfect knowledge of the state of the universe and how it functions we would be able to predict the future (there are reasons why such an implementation would be physically impossible but that's not important here). Your word "predetermined" can imply that some conscious being has done the predetermining which is actually a whole different debate. Better would be to just leave it as we'd be able to predict the future in principle if not in actual practice.
Or, the universe could be inherently random and then it would not matter if we have conscious free will or not, because having perfect knowledge of the current state of the universe along with with how it functions would not allow us to predict the future with certainty given that some of that functioning is random.
The third option is a deterministic universe but where people have conscious free will. I feel that conscious free will requires that the conscious mind not be reducible to causal effects. Without being able to reduce our conscious thoughts and decisions to neurons firing, cells operating, atoms atomming, and quarks spinning (etc.) then we would not be able to know the exact state of the universe right now and thus would not be able to predict the future.
It could also be that the conscious free willers do think that our conscious thoughts and decisions can be reduced to neurons, atoms, etc., without compromising the causal requirements for conscious free will. I have a difficult time wrapping my mind around what would appear to be a logical contradiction but if it is possible then you would be able to know the exact state of the universe and if it is deterministic be able to predict the future.
I believe this is the consequence of Bob's position and is the conclusion that my model leads to if one accepts conscious free will. In order for us to have conscious free will our minds must not have any ongoing causal connection with the rest of the brain (as in the physical brain causing thoughts and decisions). It could have been created by that brain and must maintain a connection with the brain in order to communicate with it but the brain would have no ongoing causal effect on the mind. A ghost in the machine. I am fairly certain that Bob rejects that kind of supernatural explanation and rejects that the mind and brain are separate entities but then I'm not really certain how one would sever those causal chains connecting neural activity to conscious thought which is needed in order to grant conscious free will.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jan 13, 2014 23:07:29 GMT -5
No Dave. I am claiming that the causal chain ends in a conscious decision. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2014 23:13:58 GMT -5
What a confusion. So you're agreeing that there is a causal chain for everything except for thoughts? How does that happen?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jan 14, 2014 0:33:03 GMT -5
What a confusion. So you're agreeing that there is a causal chain for everything except for thoughts? How does that happen? No Lily, I'm not claiming that there is a causal chain for everything except thoughts. What I am claiming is that the decision at the end of the causal chain is freely made. In other words, the decision could have been otherwise. And that's free will. For example, let's say you are going to make a decision to watch TV or post on FACTS. Or you can substitute any two other actions you are likely to perform. Everything else has already been determined (your past history, the Big Bang, etc.). It comes down to your decision. And you can choose either one, can't you? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 1:10:49 GMT -5
This is why this Free Will argument can (and does) go on forever because as Dave said, there is no consistent defintions in use. Bob, you say there is a causal chain because you refer to the end of the causal chain. What is your definition of a causal chain?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jan 14, 2014 13:03:08 GMT -5
This is why this Free Will argument can (and does) go on forever because as Dave said, there is no consistent defintions in use. Bob, you say there is a causal chain because you refer to the end of the causal chain. What is your definition of a causal chain? One event leads to another, and then another, etc. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 13:07:26 GMT -5
This is why this Free Will argument can (and does) go on forever because as Dave said, there is no consistent defintions in use. Bob, you say there is a causal chain because you refer to the end of the causal chain. What is your definition of a causal chain? One event leads to another, and then another, etc. Bob What is the event that leads to a thought?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jan 14, 2014 15:05:25 GMT -5
One event leads to another, and then another, etc. Bob What is the event that leads to a thought? Electrical and chemical activity in the brain. But once the thought is formed, it can lead to more electrical and chemical activity. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 15:54:34 GMT -5
What is the event that leads to a thought? Electrical and chemical activity in the brain. But once the thought is formed, it can lead to more electrical and chemical activity. Bob What is the event that leads to electrical and chemical activity in the brain? And, please, don't turn this into something circular.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2014 16:24:19 GMT -5
Electrical and chemical activity in the brain. But once the thought is formed, it can lead to more electrical and chemical activity. Bob What is the event that leads to electrical and chemical activity in the brain? And, please, don't turn this into something circular. The reason I'm asking the above, Bob, is because you say you do believe in a causal chain but that it ends at the threshold of behavior and thoughts. Dave believes in a causal chain which does determine behavior and thoughts. But I'm not so sure about what Dave says about that because he seems to waver and it's tough to pin him down. On the other hand, you Bob, are also tough to pin down an explanation on how you come to your conclusions. To me. both arguments are nothing but fancy footwork.
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