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Post by rmarks1 on May 30, 2019 16:30:53 GMT -5
I thin the Free Market and Minimal Government are great because they reduce taxes and government intervention to the absolute minimum. "the absolute minimum" for slavery would be no slavery at all, and you have already admitted that your system would be incapable of realizing that. It's just another authoritarian slave society with a pretty ideological paint, like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Are you saying that there is no difference at all Western Democracies and Nazi or Soviet murderous tyrannies? Apparently you never learned about the concept of "differences in degree." I asked you to describe an alternate system. All you did was mention one feature. Where is your system? Don't tell me that you don't have one? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 4:28:54 GMT -5
"the absolute minimum" for slavery would be no slavery at all, and you have already admitted that your system would be incapable of realizing that. It's just another authoritarian slave society with a pretty ideological paint, like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Are you saying that there is no difference at all Western Democracies and Nazi or Soviet murderous tyrannies? Apparently you never learned about the concept of "differences in degree." Of course not, college students protesting on university campuses are Nazi stormtroopers after all. Why do you need me to lay out a system when all my position requires is the absence of crimes against human rights? Not enslaving people should be enough. Why do you need to build an entire "system" around not doing something?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 1, 2019 10:15:53 GMT -5
Are you saying that there is no difference at all Western Democracies and Nazi or Soviet murderous tyrannies? Apparently you never learned about the concept of "differences in degree." Of course not, college students protesting on university campuses are Nazi stormtroopers after all. Stormtroopers in training, yes. LOL! Of course it's not enough and you know it. You have to build a system around it because otherwise your "solution" is not a solution at all. No slavery means no forced payment of taxes. How are you going to get enough money to run a government? Or are you proposing Anarchy? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 11:16:46 GMT -5
Of course not, college students protesting on university campuses are Nazi stormtroopers after all. Stormtroopers in training, yes. Does that mean you believe that there is no difference in degree?
Non sequitur. You have not shown that I have to build a system around not committing crimes against humanity. Wasn't one of your most frequently raised arguments that private organizations can do anything that a government does, but better and more efficiently?
What do you mean by "Anarchy"?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 1, 2019 13:06:26 GMT -5
Stormtroopers in training, yes. Does that mean you believe that there is no difference in degree? Difference in degree between the way the Nazis started out and the violent students? No. I asked you if you had an alternate system. You didn't give one. So in other words, you can't answer the question. Why don't you just say that you have no answer? Therefore...? "absence of government" www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchyIs that what you are proposing? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 18:39:35 GMT -5
I propose an absence of slavery. Apparently that makes you profoundly uncomfortable for some reason.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 1, 2019 19:34:32 GMT -5
I propose an absence of slavery. Apparently that makes you profoundly uncomfortable for some reason.
LOL! No it doesn't. And I already posted a way for government o raise money without taxation. (See the "financing government without taxes" thread).
No taxation means no slavery. And that means an absence of slavery.
So I already gave a way to eliminate taxation/slavery. What is your specific proposal?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 20:09:22 GMT -5
I propose an absence of slavery. Apparently that makes you profoundly uncomfortable for some reason. LOL! No it doesn't.
Yet you keep hounding and attacking me over not having my own utopian model of society ready for publication right now. Apparently, you believe that I can only critique existing beliefs if I have an entire custom-made religion ready to replace them. Well, no taxation and no other forms of oppression. Why do you need a "specific proposal"? What's the point of that?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 1, 2019 20:44:36 GMT -5
Yet you keep hounding and attacking me over not having my own utopian model of society ready for publication right now. "Hounding and attacking?" That's a good one. All I did was ask if you had a better plan. You could have simply said "no." Why didn't you? Of course that would have left my plan as the best proposal to reduce taxes. You can critique all you want. But if you don't have a better plan, then the plan you are criticizing is left as the only alternative. And what are these other forms of slavery? As I already told you, if you don't have a better proposal, than my proposal to reduce the slavery of taxation is the only one left standing. And BTW, I did find a plan to fund the government without taxation (posted in another thread). No taxation means no slavery! So that does satisfy your "no slavery" criterion. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2019 13:59:00 GMT -5
So we need to enslave people because you cannot conceive of not enslaving people? Gotcha.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 2, 2019 15:27:42 GMT -5
So we need to enslave people because you cannot conceive of not enslaving people? Gotcha.
I never said that. You made it up.
What I did say was that I found a way to eliminate the slavery of compulsory taxation.
So I just did conceive of not enslaving people.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2019 12:34:57 GMT -5
So we need to enslave people because you cannot conceive of not enslaving people? Gotcha. I never said that. You made it up. What I did say was that I found a way to eliminate the slavery of compulsory taxation.
So I just did conceive of not enslaving people. Bob
"You can critique all you want. But if you don't have a better plan, then the plan you are criticizing is left as the only alternative."Unless I come up with a plan how you don't need to enslave people, we must continue to enslave people.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 3, 2019 13:40:24 GMT -5
I never said that. You made it up. What I did say was that I found a way to eliminate the slavery of compulsory taxation.
So I just did conceive of not enslaving people. Bob
"You can critique all you want. But if you don't have a better plan, then the plan you are criticizing is left as the only alternative."Unless I come up with a plan how you don't need to enslave people, we must continue to enslave people.
But I already came up with a plan that doesn't involve taxes or slavery at all. How come you're ignoring it?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 13:04:59 GMT -5
You admitted that libertarian governments have to enslave people in order to keep going. Or do you disagree that taxation is slavery?
Also, the government you envision is literally nothing more than a bunch of armed thugs tasked with imprisoning or killing people who object to the existing social order.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 4, 2019 13:21:16 GMT -5
You admitted that libertarian governments have to enslave people in order to keep going. Or do you disagree that taxation is slavery? I did not "admit it" at all. I thought that taxes could only be minimized, not eliminated. Further research showed me that compulsory taxes can be eliminated. No compulsory taxes means no slavery. Thank you for pointing out my error. I wouldn't have done the extra research without your insights. Where id I say that? What did I write that could possibly give you that wrong impression. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 13:32:34 GMT -5
You admitted that libertarian governments have to enslave people in order to keep going. Or do you disagree that taxation is slavery? I did not "admit it" at all. I thought that taxes could only be minimized, not eliminated. Further research showed me that compulsory taxes can be eliminated. No compulsory taxes means no slavery. Thank you for pointing out my error. I wouldn't have done the extra research without your insights. Where id I say that? What did I write that could possibly give you that wrong impression. Bob The libertarian idea of "government" is the military (i.e. thugs whose job is to kill people), the police (i.e. thugs whose job is to imprison or kill people), secret security services (ditto), and a justice system (to legitimize the imprisoment and killing).
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 4, 2019 14:00:22 GMT -5
I did not "admit it" at all. I thought that taxes could only be minimized, not eliminated. Further research showed me that compulsory taxes can be eliminated. No compulsory taxes means no slavery. Thank you for pointing out my error. I wouldn't have done the extra research without your insights. Where id I say that? What did I write that could possibly give you that wrong impression. Bob The libertarian idea of "government" is the military (i.e. thugs whose job is to kill people), the police (i.e. thugs whose job is to imprison or kill people), secret security services (ditto), and a justice system (to legitimize the imprisoment and killing).
And you are claiming that other governments don't have these?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2019 18:40:25 GMT -5
Do you see me claiming that?
Serious question, as you seem to suffer from hallucinatory delusions sometimes...
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 4, 2019 21:56:15 GMT -5
Do you see me claiming that? From what you wrote, it sounded as if you were claiming that only Libertarian governments act in a repressive way. And why would you even imply that since the be-all and end-all of libertarian philosophy is to free people from government oppression? No. That is not a serious question. Just another Ad Hominem. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 13:38:49 GMT -5
Do you see me claiming that? From what you wrote, it sounded as if you were claiming that only Libertarian governments act in a repressive way. All governments act in repressive ways, but it is so-called "Libertarians" who want to strip government down to provide nothing but the repression. Indeed, right-wing "libertarians" seem appallingly comfortable with the enslavement of others. Fortunately, these "libertarian" slavery apologists are not the only liberty-minded political groups around.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 5, 2019 16:00:41 GMT -5
From what you wrote, it sounded as if you were claiming that only Libertarian governments act in a repressive way. All governments act in repressive ways, but it is so-called "Libertarians" who want to strip government down to provide nothing but the repression. Is it "repression" to arrest robbers and murderers? Or do you claiming that repression is okay as long as the repressors steal from the rich and give to the poor? Please clarify. Supporting evidence please. "Slavery apologists?" Supporting evidence please. I am familiar with left-libertarian literature. I read plenty of it in the 60's and 70's. You might like Reich's "Mass Psychology of Fascism." Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 16:52:12 GMT -5
All governments act in repressive ways, but it is so-called "Libertarians" who want to strip government down to provide nothing but the repression. Is it "repression" to arrest robbers and murderers? Yes, of course it is. Why wouldn't it be? Because it happens to people whom your government has classified as legitimate targets? You're sitting right here. As familiar as you are with Marx, whom you apparently never closely examined beyond the claptrap you were made to memorize by rote? LOL
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 5, 2019 20:34:43 GMT -5
Is it "repression" to arrest robbers and murderers? Yes, of course it is. Why wouldn't it be? Because it happens to people whom your government has classified as legitimate targets? Well so far most of the people arrested are murderers, thieves, and rapists. Are you suggesting that these sorts of people should not be arrested?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2019 14:42:19 GMT -5
Yes, of course it is. Why wouldn't it be? Because it happens to people whom your government has classified as legitimate targets? Well so far most of the people arrested are murderers, thieves, and rapists. Don't forget drug users, prostitutes, and people who were rude to a policeman! All very serious crimes. Really? Then why is it that your arguments are full of them, but short of actual evidence?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 6, 2019 17:48:53 GMT -5
Well so far most of the people arrested are murderers, thieves, and rapists. Don't forget drug users, prostitutes, and people who were rude to a policeman! All very serious crimes. Don't look at me. I've always been in favor of legalizing drugs and sex. These would be among the first things a Libertarian government would legalize. Complex Question Fallacy. And you stated it without providing any supporting evidence. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 4:57:01 GMT -5
Don't forget drug users, prostitutes, and people who were rude to a policeman! All very serious crimes. Don't look at me. I've always been in favor of legalizing drugs and sex. These would be among the first things a Libertarian government would legalize. But being rude to the police must absolutely stay on the books! What would the world come to if people were able to criticize their government!
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 7, 2019 11:23:49 GMT -5
Don't look at me. I've always been in favor of legalizing drugs and sex. These would be among the first things a Libertarian government would legalize. But being rude to the police must absolutely stay on the books! What would the world come to if people were able to criticize their government! I don't know what it is like in Austria, but here in America, being rude to a police officer is not a crime.[/div] " While it isn’t necessarily the best idea to mouth off to a police officer, doing so is not in and of itself a crime and should not result in you being arrested or charged. But what is sometimes referred to as “contempt of cop” often leads to a wrongful arrest and charges for “disorderly conduct” or “breach of the peace.” Unless you are threatening the police officer with violence or are using “fighting words” to incite a violent response, however, your angry words to the police are protected by the First Amendment." www.hg.org/legal-articles/can-i-get-arrested-just-for-being-rude-to-the-police-42270This is the situation here already. A Libertarian government wouldn't have to change a thing. Hey, aren't you the one who wants to get rid of Freedom of Speech? Once you do that, the police will have a right to arrest you for insulting them Bob
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