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Post by rmarks1 on May 18, 2019 12:17:05 GMT -5
Yes, that's what I said. You condone theft and robbery in cases that benefit you, personally, in correct adherence to the Randian principle of Rational Egoism. As usual, you quote selectively. What you left out is that the alternative to limited government is Anarchy. Are you also saying that the alternative to the small taxation needed for a limited government is much more taxation by a big government? It sounds like you are. Nope. I never said that. Once again you made it up. "Human Rights" are rights that benefit everyone. Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 13:46:29 GMT -5
What you left out is that the alternative to limited government is Anarchy. Yes, if the government is evil, then the only moral solution is to not have one. But you don't really believe that government is evil. You believe that government functions that do not personally benefit you are evil. You hold positions only insofar as they logically follow from your egoism. You are only in favor of those specific human rights that are of personal benefit to you. I'm saying that you believe taxation is theft, but only when isn't of benefit to you personally. I didn't say that you literally spoke these words, I said you demonstrated these arguments. You have already established your position that property rights can be dispensed with to pay for your personal protection. The question remains if you hold this same position with regards to other public services as well. So is taxation a violation of property rights, yes or no?
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Post by rmarks1 on May 18, 2019 18:31:02 GMT -5
What you left out is that the alternative to limited government is Anarchy. Yes, if the government is evil, then the only moral solution is to not have one. But you don't really believe that government is evil. You believe that government functions that do not personally benefit you are evil. You hold positions only insofar as they logically follow from your egoism. You are only in favor of those specific human rights that are of personal benefit to you. Gee, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press, the right to Peaceably Assemble, and The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause. only benefit me! I never knew that before. Thanks for pointing it out. And your evidence for this is...? Actually, low taxes are of benefit to everyone who pays taxes, not just me. And as usual, you didn't bother to give an exact quote. Do you have one? Wrong. It's not my personal protection. It's everyone's personal protection. And I don't hold with using taxpayer money for anything which does not benefit everyone. Yes. Which is why taxation has to be minimized. Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 13:05:08 GMT -5
Yes, if the government is evil, then the only moral solution is to not have one. But you don't really believe that government is evil. You believe that government functions that do not personally benefit you are evil. You hold positions only insofar as they logically follow from your egoism. You are only in favor of those specific human rights that are of personal benefit to you. Gee, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press, the right to Peaceably Assemble, and The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause. only benefit me! I never knew that before. Thanks for pointing it out. And of course your response is a non-response that advances no argument and takes no position, with the sole purpose of expressing your disrespect towards me. How about you actually adress my argument for a change? The fact that you disapprove of taxation except in those instances where it benefits you personally, specifically the protection of your personal wealth and the protection of rights that are of personal benefit to you. Actually, the money that goes into their paychecks was forcibly appropriated by your government. Right. That's the one concession that has to be made. It's either that or Anarchism. Unless, of course, you can think of another alternative. Can you? How about adressing my argument now? And as usual, you didn't bother to provide evidence for your claim. Minimized, but not eliminated. Gotcha. So you are still in favor of robbing people to benefit yourself.
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Post by rmarks1 on May 19, 2019 13:26:33 GMT -5
Gee, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of the Press, the right to Peaceably Assemble, and The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause. only benefit me! I never knew that before. Thanks for pointing it out. And of course your response is a non-response that advances no argument and takes no position, with the sole purpose of expressing your disrespect towards me. How about you actually adress my argument for a change? I did address your arguments. You said I favored freedoms that only benefited me. I pointed out that I favor freedoms that benefit everyone. Other than the fact I corrected your error, how is that being disrespectful to you? What you fail to point out is that these rights benefit everyone and not just me.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 13:36:42 GMT -5
And of course your response is a non-response that advances no argument and takes no position, with the sole purpose of expressing your disrespect towards me. How about you actually adress my argument for a change? I did address your arguments. You said I favored freedoms that only benefited me. I pointed out that I favor freedoms that benefit everyone. As usual, you are making a claim without any supporting evidence. You have not demonstrated that, only claim it without providing any evidence or even any sort of argument to support it, in your usual manner. That was not the argument. I am argueing that you believe in robbing people for your benefit, not that refraining from robbing people could provide you the same benefits. I have literally provided a supporting quote literally in the post you just read. But since you have these convenient memory lapses whenever we talk about your beliefs and arguments, here it is again: Actually, the money that goes into their paychecks was forcibly appropriated by your government. Right. That's the one concession that has to be made. It's either that or Anarchism. Unless, of course, you can think of another alternative. Can you? You believe that in order to pay for your protection, it is perfectly okay if the government robs other people. You've argued this at length. We don't need to discuss this as if it was in question.
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Post by rmarks1 on May 19, 2019 14:12:45 GMT -5
I did address your arguments. You said I favored freedoms that only benefited me. I pointed out that I favor freedoms that benefit everyone. As usual, you are making a claim without any supporting evidence. The "evidence" is that I deny ever making such a claim. Since you say that I did, it is up to you to supply the evidence.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 21:45:44 GMT -5
What you fail to mention is that the protection is not just for me. It is for everyone. Bob But that's simply not true! You said it yourself. Only some people have the right to be protected, and you are among those who decide who gets that protection: So what you are argueing is that you, personally, should be able to decide who gets to enter the United States of America, because you already live there. Correct? Nope. But I do have a vote in that matter every two years. So in effect, the place you live IS your property as long as you pay rent. But Austria isn't your property. Therefore you would have no objection to a terrorist group from another country moving in to plot their next attack even if they were to move right next door to you. Correct? I didn't have to sign any contract. The Constitution of the USA already granted me that right 124 years before I was born. Technically the Federal Government is not the landlord. It is only the agent of the citizens who are the true landlords. Only a few people have the birthright to be protected. Nobody is under any obligation to protect those not born with that birthright: So, that's not your opinion? What do you think, then? I think the U.N. has it right. People have a right to flee a country any time they want to. But they have no right to demand that any country has an obligation to let them in. That would mean the people who already live in that country have no ownership rights at all, only obligations. How much room do you have where you are living now? I'm sure you could fit in a homeless refugee or two. After all, isn't it your obligation to be humane to other people? Bob
Your claim that you are advocating human rights for everyone is inconsistent with these other claims you made.
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Post by rmarks1 on May 19, 2019 23:19:46 GMT -5
What you fail to mention is that the protection is not just for me. It is for everyone. Bob But that's simply not true! You said it yourself. Only some people have the right to be protected, and you are among those who decide who gets that protection: Nope. I never said that. You made it up. Again, I never said any such thing. You made it up. Non Sequitur. All you did here is repeat what I said and then you made a totally false conclusion for which you presented no evidence or logical argument at all. Human Rights are for everyone. Even you. Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 12:18:26 GMT -5
But that's simply not true! You said it yourself. Only some people have the right to be protected, and you are among those who decide who gets that protection: Nope. I never said that. You made it up. No. I provided correctly sourced quotes. You are the one who is making things up by denying that you made these claims. Again, I provided supporting quotes. So stop lying. Ad hominem. As usual, you are attacking me and making up nonsense, without providing even a shred of support for your argument.
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Post by rmarks1 on May 20, 2019 14:10:07 GMT -5
Nope. I never said that. You made it up. No. I provided correctly sourced quotes. You are the one who is making things up by denying that you made these claims. No problem. All you have to do is cut and paste what I actually said so that everyone can see. If it's a lie, then you should have no trouble cutting and pasting my actual words so that people could see this for themselves. Why don't you? Again, no problem. Anyone reading this can easily scroll up a couple of posts to see your actual text. Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 12:28:28 GMT -5
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Post by rmarks1 on May 21, 2019 12:42:58 GMT -5
I did scroll up. There is noting in that post where I claimed that only some people have the right to be protected. You posted the wrong link. Please cut and past next time. Once again the link you posted does not go to a p[ost where I said that only some people have the right to be protected. You seem to have trouble finding the right link. Perhaps that is because I never made the claim that only some people have the right to be protected. Yes, the actual text where I posted your exact words.[/quote] You linked to the exact same post three times and there is nothing there that matches your claims. Nice try McAnswer, but no cigar. Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2019 12:10:46 GMT -5
I did scroll up. There is noting in that post where I claimed that only some people have the right to be protected. You posted the wrong link. Please cut and past next time. Once again the link you posted does not go to a p[ost where I said that only some people have the right to be protected. You seem to have trouble finding the right link. Perhaps that is because I never made the claim that only some people have the right to be protected. Yes, the actual text where I posted your exact words. You linked to the exact same post three times and there is nothing there that matches your claims. Nice try McAnswer, but no cigar. Bob [/quote] I've shown my work. It's not my problem if you prefer to reject reality and substitute your own.
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Post by rmarks1 on May 22, 2019 14:50:07 GMT -5
I did scroll up. There is noting in that post where I claimed that only some people have the right to be protected. You posted the wrong link. Please cut and past next time. Once again the link you posted does not go to a p[ost where I said that only some people have the right to be protected. You seem to have trouble finding the right link. Perhaps that is because I never made the claim that only some people have the right to be protected. Yes, the actual text where I posted your exact words. You linked to the exact same post three times and there is nothing there that matches your claims. Nice try McAnswer, but no cigar. Bob I've shown my work. It's not my problem if you prefer to reject reality and substitute your own.[/quote]
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Post by rmarks1 on May 22, 2019 14:53:37 GMT -5
You linked to the exact same post three times and there is nothing there that matches your claims. Nice try McAnswer, but no cigar. Bob I've shown my work. It's not my problem if you prefer to reject reality and substitute your own. The reality is that your "work" has no bearing at all on the topic under discussion. The reality is right there for anyone to see.
Do you have any relevant facts to post?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2019 5:45:39 GMT -5
I've shown my work. It's not my problem if you prefer to reject reality and substitute your own. The reality is that your "work" has no bearing at all on the topic under discussion. The topic under discussion is human rights, which Randians gleefully discard the moment they see a benefit in it. Or is it not a violation of the human right to property if you make the government steal from everyone to protect you? Indeed it is! Do you?
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Post by rmarks1 on May 23, 2019 13:39:56 GMT -5
The reality is that your "work" has no bearing at all on the topic under discussion. The topic under discussion is human rights, which Randians gleefully discard the moment they see a benefit in it. As usual, a claim presented with no evidence. Complex Question Fallacy. Had I said the government should protect only me, you would have had a point. But since the protection is for everyone, you don't. And since I never made any such claim, your point is also a Strawman Fallacy. Yes, I agree. Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 0:04:04 GMT -5
The topic under discussion is human rights, which Randians gleefully discard the moment they see a benefit in it. As usual, a claim presented with no evidence. I have presented enough evidence in this thread. You are welcome to adress my arguments, if you like. "Everyone" includes you, does it not? Do you dispute that the government steals from people in order to protect you?
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Post by rmarks1 on May 24, 2019 13:28:16 GMT -5
As usual, a claim presented with no evidence. I have presented enough evidence in this thread. You are welcome to adress my arguments, if you like. "Everyone" includes you, does it not? Do you dispute that the government steals from people in order to protect you?
But you haven't presented any evidence for your claim "The topic under discussion is human rights, which Randians gleefully discard the moment they see a benefit in it."
Well, where is your evidence?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 5:54:22 GMT -5
The title of this thread is "Did God Give us Human Rights?"
It makes sense to assume that the topic of this discussion is human rights, don't you think?
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Post by rmarks1 on May 25, 2019 10:46:54 GMT -5
The title of this thread is "Did God Give us Human Rights?" It makes sense to assume that the topic of this discussion is human rights, don't you think?
What exactly does what you say here have to do with my request that you provide evidence for your claims?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 11:13:28 GMT -5
The title of this thread is "Did God Give us Human Rights?" It makes sense to assume that the topic of this discussion is human rights, don't you think? What exactly does what you say here have to do with my request that you provide evidence for your claims? Bob
Good point!
What exactly does your request have to do with the topic of our discussion again?
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Post by rmarks1 on May 25, 2019 11:45:53 GMT -5
What exactly does what you say here have to do with my request that you provide evidence for your claims? Bob
Good point!
What exactly does your request have to do with the topic of our discussion again?
My request is that you stick to the subject. Is that a problem?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 12:22:55 GMT -5
I am sticking to the subject.
Let me simply state my position on the subject of human rights again, since you have clearly so much trouble remembering my argument: Robbing other people so the government can provide for your safety is not compatible with the claim that property rights are a universal human right.
Do you have anything to add?
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Post by rmarks1 on May 25, 2019 12:36:34 GMT -5
I am sticking to the subject.
Let me simply state my position on the subject of human rights again, since you have clearly so much trouble remembering my argument: Robbing other people so the government can provide for your safety is not compatible with the claim that property rights are a universal human right.
Do you have anything to add?
Are you saying that I claimed only my safety should be protected? Sounds like you are. If so, I never made that claim.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 13:03:36 GMT -5
I am sticking to the subject.
Let me simply state my position on the subject of human rights again, since you have clearly so much trouble remembering my argument: Robbing other people so the government can provide for your safety is not compatible with the claim that property rights are a universal human right. Do you have anything to add?
Are you saying that I claimed only my safety should be protected? Sounds like you are. If so, I never made that claim.
Bob
Actually, it sounds like you aren't reading what I write in my posts. Rather, it sounds like you are just making up whatever nonsense fits your argument.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 13:04:00 GMT -5
Do you see these words anywhere in the text you quote directly in your response? If you can't, then I didn't say it.
Try reading what I write, for a change. I guarantee that many of your questions concerned with what I am saying will be answered by simply reading what I said in the text.
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Post by rmarks1 on May 25, 2019 13:05:21 GMT -5
Are you saying that I claimed only my safety should be protected? Do you see these words anywhhere in the text you quote directly in your response? If you can't, then I didn't say it. Try reading what I write, for a change. I guarantee that many of your questions concerned with what I am saying will be answered by simply reading what I said in the text.
This is what you actually said: "Robbing other people so the government can provide for your safety is not compatible with the claim that property rights are a universal human right".
Now did you see me say that ONLY my rights should be protected? I didn't. Not ever.
Try reading what I write for a change. I guarantee that many of your questions concerning what I am saying will be answered by simply reading what I said in the text.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2019 13:06:27 GMT -5
Do you see these words anywhhere in the text you quote directly in your response? If you can't, then I didn't say it. Try reading what I write, for a change. I guarantee that many of your questions concerned with what I am saying will be answered by simply reading what I said in the text. This is what you actually said: "Robbing other people so the government can provide for your safety is not compatible with the claim that property rights are a universal human right". Now did you see me say that ONLY my rights should be protected? I didn't. Not ever.
And what does that change about the argument?
You are still argueing that the human right to property can be violated arbitrarily as long as it yields benefits to you and/or an arbitrary group of people.
You've derailed our discussion with this tantrum for several pages over a distinction that doesn't make a difference.
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