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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 6, 2019 17:21:12 GMT -5
Easy one. Here's 2 examples: The Higgs Boson was only a theoretical proposal before a collider was built that was large enough to produce evidence that the Boson actually existed. That collider was built with tax money wasn't it? Red Herring. Your initial question was about how long it takes to find out if something is true, not how it is financed. Red Herring again. What does this have to do with how long it took to verify Einstein's theory? Nothing. So in other words, you can't find any fault with what I said so you're trying to change the subject?  Basically, the Free Market leaves people alone to solve their own problems without interference from government bureaucrats. Other systems rely on government control. For example there are the Communist and Socialist systems that killed millions of people in the process. Bob |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 5:05:16 GMT -5
That collider was built with tax money wasn't it? Red Herring. Your initial question was about how long it takes to find out if something is true, not how it is financed. You claimed that research is fastest when the government "leaves people alone". But the government didn't leave people alone, it built them a very expensive and complex research facility to work in. You cited him as example for when research is best and fastest, but Einstein was under constant government surveillance and never really "left alone" which is what you claim the best way to do research. But you have no evidence that this actually works better than the current approach where the government gives tenured professors and research teams a lot of money and plenty of expensive space and facilities to work in.
By your own argument, research would be faster if the government cut all spending for research and stopped funding universities, but you haven't shown that to be the case so far.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 7, 2019 12:16:19 GMT -5
Red Herring. Your initial question was about how long it takes to find out if something is true, not how it is financed. You claimed that research is fastest when the government "leaves people alone". But the government didn't leave people alone, it built them a very expensive and complex research facility to work in. By "leaving people alone" I meant that the government should not restrict speech, research, or conclusions. The government's actions in this case do not even remotely qualify as censorship or a restriction. Whether or not the government should finance scientific research is a separate issue that has nothing at all to do with Censorship. I never knew that Einstein was "under constant government surveillance" before and during WWI (which was when he developed his General Relativity theory). Of course you have have a source for this claim? "General relativity (GR) is a theory of gravitation that was developed by Albert Einstein between 1907 and 1915..." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_general_relativityAnd by "leaving a researcher alone", I meant leaving them free from harassment, restriction, and arrest. Are you claiming that this is what the government did to Einstein? Again, please supply supporting evidence. My argument was that research would be better without diverting attention to projects thatserve some government bureaucrat's idea of what should be researched. Yes, government money can increase research in areas that the government wants researched. But why should research priorities be set by the government? Government bureaucrats will fund projects that fit in with their own priorities. And individual taxpayers may not wish to have their tax money spent on those priorities. Like these: Great examples of research advances made possible by government bureaucrats. Bob |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 15:05:21 GMT -5
You claimed that research is fastest when the government "leaves people alone". But the government didn't leave people alone, it built them a very expensive and complex research facility to work in. By "leaving people alone" I meant that the government should not restrict speech, research, or conclusions. So it's part of the free market when the government appropriates other people's money for the sake of "research"? |
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 7, 2019 16:03:56 GMT -5
By "leaving people alone" I meant that the government should not restrict speech, research, or conclusions. So it's part of the free market when the government appropriates other people's money for the sake of "research"?
No it isn't. Sure progress is made when the government starts spending the taxpayers money. But it is only "progress" on things the government wants investigated and not necessarily on things that people want or need.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2019 17:58:24 GMT -5
So it's part of the free market when the government appropriates other people's money for the sake of "research"?
No it isn't. Sure progress is made when the government starts spending the taxpayers money. But it is only "progress" on things the government wants investigated and not necessarily on things that people want or need.
Bob
Then you agree that the supercollider was an invalid example for research in a free market and ideas? |
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 7, 2019 19:35:19 GMT -5
No it isn't. Sure progress is made when the government starts spending the taxpayers money. But it is only "progress" on things the government wants investigated and not necessarily on things that people want or need.
Bob
Then you agree that the supercollider was an invalid example for research in a free market and ideas?
Yes, it was a bad example. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.
But the example of Einstein's prediction still stands. 
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2019 15:39:29 GMT -5
Einstein was a government employee for most of his life, wasn't he?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 8, 2019 18:29:57 GMT -5
Einstein was a government employee for most of his life, wasn't he?
I don't know. Was he?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2019 6:51:19 GMT -5
His famous papers were published in 1905 when he was an employee at the Swiss Patent Office, and he later received professorships at various government universities in Europe, but he spent 1933 until his death as a researcher at the nominally independent Institute of Advanced Studies, because American universities like Havard and Princeton had a quota for Jews.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 9, 2019 11:04:56 GMT -5
His famous papers were published in 1905 when he was an employee at the Swiss Patent Office,... Einstein worked for the Swiss Patent Office to earn a living. His job duties as a clerk did not include "Working on your own time doing scientific research that will change the World." Einstein did all that in his spare time. It was never part of his job at the Patent Office. So? It's not my fault that Universities in Central Europe were run by the government. Are you saying that if those Universities were privately owned, that Einstein could never have come up with the General Theory of Relativity? "Nominally Independent!" Wrong. "The Institute for Advanced Study (IAS), located at 1 Einstein Drive, Princeton, New Jersey, in the United States, is an independent postdoctoral research center for theoretical research and intellectual inquiry. It was founded in 1930 by American educator Abraham Flexner, together with philanthropists Louis Bamberger and Caroline Bamberger Fuld. The IAS is perhaps best known as the academic home of Albert Einstein, Hermann Weyl, John von Neumann and Kurt Gödel, after their immigration to the United States. Although it is close to and collaborates with Princeton University, Rutgers University, and other nearby institutions, it is independent and does not charge tuition or fees.[2] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Advanced_StudyIn other words, the Institute is not a government organization and never has been. Irrelevant to the topic under discussion. Bob |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 12:04:45 GMT -5
His famous papers were published in 1905 when he was an employee at the Swiss Patent Office,... Einstein worked for the Swiss Patent Office to earn a living. His job duties as a clerk did not include "Working on your own time doing scientific research that will change the World." Einstein did all that in his spare time. It was never part of his job at the Patent Office. I see no evidence that Einstein would have worked harder and produced better research if he had been unemployed and living from his savings instead. I'm saying that you're full of shit when you think that people do better research when the government stops funding universities. It's the same magical thinking that advocates cutting all welfare programs because those people are all lazy and just need a push to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. |
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 12, 2019 19:59:53 GMT -5
Einstein worked for the Swiss Patent Office to earn a living. His job duties as a clerk did not include "Working on your own time doing scientific research that will change the World." Einstein did all that in his spare time. It was never part of his job at the Patent Office. I see no evidence that Einstein would have worked harder and produced better research if he had been unemployed and living from his savings instead. Therefore...? I never aid that people do better research when the government stops funding universities. You made that up. What I did say is that government has no business funding research. And I never said that people on welfare are just lazy. You made that up too. I'm not doing "magical thinking." But you are doing "magical quoting" because you are simply making up things that I never said. The only thing you have shown so far is that you have a vivid imagination. Bob |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2019 21:53:22 GMT -5
I see no evidence that Einstein would have worked harder and produced better research if he had been unemployed and living from his savings instead. Therefore...? I never aid that people do better research when the government stops funding universities. You made that up. What I did say is that government has no business funding research. And I never said that people on welfare are just lazy. You made that up too. I'm not doing "magical thinking." But you are doing "magical quoting" because you are simply making up things that I never said. You said people produce best research when they are being "left alone". It's not my fault if you keep tripping over your own idiotic arguments. |
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 12, 2019 22:26:26 GMT -5
Therefore...? I never aid that people do better research when the government stops funding universities. You made that up. What I did say is that government has no business funding research. And I never said that people on welfare are just lazy. You made that up too. I'm not doing "magical thinking." But you are doing "magical quoting" because you are simply making up things that I never said. You said people produce best research when they are being "left alone". Yes. And that's why Einstein took that job. It was a nice easy clerical job where he was left alone and had enough time to do his own research. No. But it is your fault when you resort to unsupported claims that this to distract from the fact you have no case. Calling my arguments "idiotic" is meaningless unless you provide actual evidence. Do you have any? Bob |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2019 15:25:23 GMT -5
You said people produce best research when they are being "left alone". Yes. And that's why Einstein took that job. It was a nice easy clerical job where he was left alone and had enough time to do his own research. But the government did not leave him alone, he literally worked for them! According to your argument Einstein would have done his best research if he had been unemployed. |
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 13, 2019 15:32:30 GMT -5
Yes. And that's why Einstein took that job. It was a nice easy clerical job where he was left alone and had enough time to do his own research. But the government did not leave him alone, he literally worked for them! According to your argument Einstein would have done his best research if he had been unemployed.
Albert managed to do all of his scientific work in his spare time.
The government didn't give his projects any support at all except for his salary for a clerical job.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 11:47:56 GMT -5
But the government did not leave him alone, he literally worked for them! According to your argument Einstein would have done his best research if he had been unemployed. Albert managed to do all of his scientific work in his spare time. Exactly! So if he had been unemployed, he could have done even more research! Further proof that governments are evil. |
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 15, 2019 12:34:10 GMT -5
Albert managed to do all of his scientific work in his spare time. Exactly! So if he had been unemployed, he could have done even more research! Further proof that governments are evil.
Obviously Einstein had to support himself. The point is that the government job had nothing at all to do with his research which he did in his spare time.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2019 14:03:25 GMT -5
Exactly! So if he had been unemployed, he could have done even more research! Further proof that governments are evil. Obviously Einstein had to support himself. Who says he has to? A private charity could have taken care of that.
Just like private charities will take care of any other problems in a free market.
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 15, 2019 14:48:16 GMT -5
Obviously Einstein had to support himself. Who says he has to? A private charity could have taken care of that.
Just like private charities will take care of any other problems in a free market.
Yes. That's right. And the result would have been the same. Somehow Einstein would have obtained enough money to support himself so he could do his own research.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2019 5:37:09 GMT -5
Who says he has to? A private charity could have taken care of that. Just like private charities will take care of any other problems in a free market.
Yes. That's right. And the result would have been the same. No, because then the government wouldn't have interfered with his research. |
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 16, 2019 10:57:09 GMT -5
Yes. That's right. And the result would have been the same. No, because then the government wouldn't have interfered with his research.
But the government didn't interfere with his research when he worked in the patent office either.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 0:47:02 GMT -5
No, because then the government wouldn't have interfered with his research. But the government didn't interfere with his research when he worked in the patent office either. Bob
Demanding eight hours of his life every day is not "interference"? LOL |
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 20, 2019 12:01:36 GMT -5
But the government didn't interfere with his research when he worked in the patent office either. Bob
Demanding eight hours of his life every day is not "interference"? LOL
That's right! It's not "interference" any more than a job with a private company would have been "interference."
Basically, Einstein was funding his own research with money that he personally earned.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2019 15:12:40 GMT -5
Demanding eight hours of his life every day is not "interference"? LOL That's right! It's not "interference" any more than a job with a private company would have been "interference." But a government is not a private company. A private company cannot interfere in people's lives, but governments do it all the time. |
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 20, 2019 18:21:02 GMT -5
That's right! It's not "interference" any more than a job with a private company would have been "interference." But a government is not a private company. A private company cannot interfere in people's lives, but governments do it all the time. Please tell us the difference between a clerical job at a private company and a similar job for the government. Are you claiming that working for a private company is not "interference" but working at a similar job for the government is? Bob |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2019 11:52:09 GMT -5
Do you seriously not see a difference between a government and a private company?
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Post by rmarks1 on Jun 21, 2019 13:01:41 GMT -5
Do you seriously not see a difference between a government and a private company?
I don't that it makes a difference in this case. Could you please point out what difference that would have made in this case?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2019 19:34:55 GMT -5
Do you seriously not see a difference between a government and a private company? I don't that it makes a difference in this case. Could you please point out what difference that would have made in this case? Bob
So it doesn't make a difference whether a private company tells you to do something vs. whether a government tells you to do something? |
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