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Post by rmarks1 on May 8, 2019 15:11:36 GMT -5
Freedom is always negative: Wealth is freedom from poverty; freedom from poverty is in the absence of poor people. Keeping poor people out increases freedom. The Wall keeps us all free of poverty.
Non Sequitur.
On top of that, your premises are not accurate:
1)"Freedom is always negative"? Bad wording. True Freedom is only negative in that it keeps others from interfering with you exercising freedom. Example: Freedom of Speech means the Government has no power to stop you from speaking. A "positive" version of Freedom of Speech would mean someone has an obligation to help you to speak.
2)"Freedom from poverty is in the absence of poor people"? Incoherent. Do you mean a wealthy person cannot be wealthy if there are poor people around?
In any event, if "Freedom" from poverty involves forcing people with more money to give to people with less money, then it is not a negative freedom.
Example: suppose a "charity" was founded that forced people at gunpoint to do "volunteer" charity work. Then it would not be charity work at all.
3)"Keeping poor people out increases freedom." Non Sequitur.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2019 21:30:04 GMT -5
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Post by rmarks1 on May 8, 2019 22:28:01 GMT -5
Nope. Never said that or even implied it. Once again, you had no good arguments against what I said so you simply change my words.
Immigrants have no legal right to enter a country without permission just as no one has a right to enter a private home without permission.
And yes, most immigrants do not carry highly contagious fatal diseases. But to protest public health, we have to check.
Just a few years ago, quarantines were imposed on people coming from nations where there were Ebola outbreaks. Perhaps the disease would not have spread. On the other hand, thousands could have died. Are you saying that countries where there was no Ebola outbreak had not right to protect their own citizens?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 13:23:02 GMT -5
Nope. Never said that or even implied it. Once again, you had no good arguments against what I said so you simply change my words. LOL! You literally compared immigration to a home invasion where people break in and randomly steal my stuff! And when I call a spade a spade you immediately dismiss anything I said in order to declare yourself the winner of your petty little argument. Spare yourself the effort, I've been debating you long enough to know the smell of your bullshit. Non sequitur. Owning property in America does not render anybody a citizen, whereas citizenship entitles you in no way to ownership over anything in your country. We've been over this. Your argument is based on bullshit. Have you argued for quarantining the population of New York during recent Measles outbreaks? No, you haven't. You never argued in favor of checking American citizens for contagious diseases. This argument is a disingenuous front for xenophobia, nothing more nothing less.
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Post by rmarks1 on May 10, 2019 18:26:13 GMT -5
Nope. Never said that or even implied it. Once again, you had no good arguments against what I said so you simply change my words. LOL! You literally compared immigration to a home invasion where people break in and randomly steal my stuff! And when I call a spade a spade you immediately dismiss anything I said in order to declare yourself the winner of your petty little argument. Spare yourself the effort, I've been debating you long enough to know the smell of your bullshit. As usual you don't bother to cut and past an actual quote. Perhaps that is because there is no such quote. What I did say was this: "Let's say that someone just wants to move into your apartment without taking any of your personal property. They just bring in a blanket to sleep on and they spread it out on the floor. The apartment isn't your property so what possible complaint can you have?" Please tell me where I said "home invasion." Yes, we've been over this before. Once again you have no evidence so you resort to name-calling. LOL! Yeah, right. Both my parents were immigrants. And they both had to stay under quarantine at Elis Island to make sure that they weren't carrying any contagious diseases. So of course that makes me anti-immigrant, right? If all you have are insults, at least think up insults that make sense. From the fact I believe in quarantines does not mean I have to mention every single case of every disease. And I didn't have to argue for a measles quarantine. Local government here already took preventive measures including shutting down several schools. And BTW, measles isn't anywhere near as deadly as Ebola. Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 8:44:10 GMT -5
Yes, we've been over this before. Once again you have no evidence so you resort to name-calling. I presented you with factual evidence right in the quote you dismiss as name-calling (bolded by me)
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 8:52:55 GMT -5
LOL! Yeah, right. Both my parents were immigrants. And they both had to stay under quarantine at Elis Island to make sure that they weren't carrying any contagious diseases. Your parents came from Europe, right? What contagious diseases would they have been carrying at the time? The Black Death? But you don't "believe in quarantines". You only believe in quarantines for foreigners, based on the counterfactual belief that all foreigners potentially carry uniquely dangerous diseases not found in America, based on the prejudice of foreigners being "filthy" and therefore prone to contagious disease. But what's the rationale of quarantining people from areas where there haven't been any deadly disease outbreaks? And BTW, no disease is "anywhere as deadly as Ebola". Ebola is, by far, the most deadly disease today.
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Post by rmarks1 on May 11, 2019 14:20:42 GMT -5
LOL! Yeah, right. Both my parents were immigrants. And they both had to stay under quarantine at Elis Island to make sure that they weren't carrying any contagious diseases. Your parents came from Europe, right? What contagious diseases would they have been carrying at the time? The Black Death? My parents came here before WWI. There were plenty of diseases back then that had no cure. Quarantine was a perfectly normal procedure in such cases. I also believe in quarantines for citizens who travel to places where there are presently contagious diseases. There were American citizens quarantined who came from the ebola ravaged countries. I support that totally. You see it's about the danger of disease, not the nationality of the person who may have it. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Astronauts who return from space are routinely quarantined even though there is no evidence of deadly microbes in space. It's a perfectly rational precaution. Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 15:58:26 GMT -5
So you'd in favor of quarantining every American travelling from one city to the next, as a measure of rational precaution? There is a measles epidemic going on in your country right now, after all...
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Post by rmarks1 on May 11, 2019 19:16:20 GMT -5
So you'd in favor of quarantining every American travelling from one city to the next, as a measure of rational precaution? There is a measles epidemic going on in your country right now, after all...
Yes, there is a measles epidemic right now. And quarantines ARE being imposed.
"Quarantines at 2 LA universities amid US measles outbreak"
Rockland County in New York Imposes a Quarantine
A quarantine imposed at state borders would be very difficult to enforce. Too much territory to cover.It's easier to imose quarantines over smaller areas.
Bob
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Post by faskew on May 12, 2019 7:37:03 GMT -5
Bob wrote: >A quarantine imposed at state borders would be very difficult to enforce.
It would be impossible. Starting from scratch, it would probably take a couple of years to even hire and train border guards, then there would be the costs of paying them, building guard posts, barracks, etc. I don't know exactly how many miles of state border we have, but I suspect that it's way over 100,000. And with thousands of highways, roads, back roads, etc., plus forests, rivers and lakes to guard. No point in even trying.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2019 10:28:58 GMT -5
But my argument wasn't whether it was difficult, my argument was whether you would agree that it would be, in principle, necessary and justified.
Fact is that US citizens can travel freely across the US without being checked for contagious diseases.
Meanwhile, people from Central America are being stuffed into overcrowded "detention centers" where children are dying from a lack of medical attention, and you think that's necessary to prevent the spreading of the Filthy Latino Plague or whatever fictional disease you've dreamed up to justify that kind of treatment to yourself.
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Post by rmarks1 on May 12, 2019 14:53:04 GMT -5
But my argument wasn't whether it was difficult, my argument was whether you would agree that it would be, in principle, necessary and justified. Fact is that US citizens can travel freely across the US without being checked for contagious diseases. Meanwhile, people from Central America are being stuffed into overcrowded "detention centers" where children are dying from a lack of medical attention, and you think that's necessary to prevent the spreading of the Filthy Latino Plague or whatever fictional disease you've dreamed up to justify that kind of treatment to yourself. A nation can only check people coming into its territory. That's why there are checkpoints at the border. No country has the right to set up checkpoints in another country. When it comes to national territory though, it is easier to set up quarantines in small, local areas, such as a city or even a neighborhood. No country has the right to do that to another country. Hence the border checkpoints. As for those detention centers, that is a matter of simple incompetence. Congress simply didn't appropriate enough money to make the immigration process fast, efficient, and easy. It's not a priority for them. I seem to recall though that there are similar problems with immigration from Africa to Europe. Even Austria. I just don't get it McAnswer. Why are you posting about how terrible America's immigration policies are when your own country seems to have the same sort of problems and is dealing with them in the same manner? 1) Austria is deploying troops at their border 2) Austria is building a border fence 3) And they stop providing food and accommodations 4) They charge 840 Euros for handling their own deportation applications. Are you sure Trump isn't also President of Austria? After all, Austria seems to be following Trump's policies. Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2019 23:43:42 GMT -5
But my argument wasn't whether it was difficult, my argument was whether you would agree that it would be, in principle, necessary and justified. Fact is that US citizens can travel freely across the US without being checked for contagious diseases. Meanwhile, people from Central America are being stuffed into overcrowded "detention centers" where children are dying from a lack of medical attention, and you think that's necessary to prevent the spreading of the Filthy Latino Plague or whatever fictional disease you've dreamed up to justify that kind of treatment to yourself. A nation can only check people coming into its territory. Asserted without evidence. And why you would concentrate a large number of people - presumably carrying contagious diseases - into camps with little to no medical treatment? That doesn't sound like a method to prevent diseases - quite the opposite actually. So you lock down all cities and check who goes in and out. Why are you not argueing in favor of that? You want quarantines to protect against disease, don't you? Why not set up check points and lock down cities ravaged by disease, such as New York? So your "argument" is that people are jailed and shipped to these concentration camps by accident? Are you actually this gullible, or do you simply assume that I am stupid enough to believe that? Why do you assume that I'm okay with what my government is doing to refugees?
And the fact that Austria has problems with handling refugees does not make it okay what your country is doing, now does it?
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Post by rmarks1 on May 13, 2019 11:11:25 GMT -5
A nation can only check people coming into its territory. Asserted without evidence. As usual, you're giving an incomplete quote and Quoting out of Context. Your original comment was: "Fact is that US citizens can travel freely across the US without being checked for contagious diseases." Here is my full response including the part you edited out: "A nation can only check people coming into its territory. That's why there are checkpoints at the border. No country has the right to set up checkpoints in another country. When it comes to national territory though, it is easier to set up quarantines in small, local areas, such as a city or even a neighborhood. No country has the right to do that to another country. Hence the border checkpoints." Complex Question Fallacy. You haven't established that there is "little or no medical treatment." Complex Question Fallacy again. Whole cities aren't being Quarantined because that is inefficient and unnecessary. At most, you would have to Quarantine a small area or a building, such as a College Dormitory. One nurse who came back from Africa after treating Ebola infected patients was quarantined in a tent near the airport. Quarantines aren't the national disaster you seem to be claiming. No. This happened because of Congressional indifference. After all, immigrants don't vote. The agencies are doing their job as best they can with the limited resources that they were given. Argument by Feigned Outrage. I gave an accurate description of what is happening. You haven't even attempted to refute those facts. Because you don't say anything about it! In fact, Austria was doing this in 2015, a year before Trump was even elected. You never mentioned a word about it. Isn't that hypocritical? No. But it makes me wonder why you adamant about things that happen in America while totally ignoring the very same things that are going on in your own country. Austria apparently has a right to deploy troops and build walls on its border, to cut off aid to immigrants, and to charge them for their own deportation but America doesn't? Again, isn't that hypocritical?
BTW, America doesn't charge people for their own deportation.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2019 14:12:21 GMT -5
Complex Question Fallacy. You haven't established that there is "little or no medical treatment." From the fact that children are dying in American "detention" camps due to lack of medical care, it logically follows that they don't receive sufficient medical treatment. So, is it efficient and necessary to quarantine all dark skinned foreigners, then? You are making assertions with no facts in evidence. Where is your evidence that "the agencies are doing their job as best as they can"? Where is your evidence of "congressional indifference"? You never mentioned anything about your government's crimes against immigrants, does that mean you're okay with those? Or does this logic only apply to other people's contributions to the discussion? No, why would it be? You are assuming facts not in evidence. But I am glad that we have established that your argument here is a Red Herring. No, it very emphatically does not. Neither does Austria. Yes, it is indeed hypocritical of you to complain about Austria when you have no compunctions about the same crimes happening in your own country. It is also very transparent and obvious. This thread is about American crimes against refugees. Why don't you open a new thread where we can discuss the crimes of the Austrian government?[/quote]
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Post by rmarks1 on May 13, 2019 19:03:22 GMT -5
Complex Question Fallacy. You haven't established that there is "little or no medical treatment." From the fact that children are dying in American "detention" camps due to lack of medical care, it logically follows that they don't receive sufficient medical treatment. But you didn't establish that they dies due to lack of medical treatment. Do you have any supporting data? Complex Question Fallacy and a Non Sequitur as well. Actually, the nurse in one case is white. The present measles outbreak is largely hitting religious Jews. What evidence do you have that only dark-skinned foreigners are being quarantined? www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/kaci-hickox-maine-nurse-quarantined-ebola-scare-sues-new-jersey-n449491For goodness sake McAnswer, there has certainly been enough about that in the news. "Border Patrol Agents Release 100,000 Migrants Instead of Turning Them Over to ‘Overwhelmed’ ICE Facilities According to a report by the San Antonio Express-News, Vitiello said as many as 108,500 migrants were directly released into the United States after being detained by Border Patrol agents over the last 90 days. Typically, Border Patrol would apprehend an undocumented person and turn them over to ICE detention facilities to be held until a judge can hear their immigration case. Vitiello explained that overcrowding in ICE facilities has shattered that system, forcing Border Patrol agents to release migrants with an order to return to face the judge — making it difficult to ensure that happens. “The numbers of people coming to the border, children with their families or children coming alone, is overwhelming the entire system,” Vitiello told reporters." ijr.com/border-patrol-release-migrants-crowded-ice-facilities/As for the inaction on immigration reform, that's common knowledge over here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_reform_in_the_United_StatesNo one can post on every topic. For example, you never posted about Austria's treatment of immigrants. I don't blame you for that. To repeat, no one can post on every topic. But you criticized American actions on immigration while ignoring that Austria was doing the same thing. Were you totally unaware of Austria's actions? It would only be hypocritical if you knew about Austria's immigration policies anddidn't bother to mention them when criticizing America's policies. What facts are not in evidence? You criticized America's policies and ignored an mention of Austria's identical policies. Those are the Facts and they are very much in Evidence. Finally! Thank you for that. That's not what the article said. "To cover the cost of handling the application, 840 euro is demanded.[197]" 840 Euros sounds like a charge to me. Me? No compunctions? Of course you have quotes from my previous posts to back up that claim, don't you? The topic is crimes against refugees. What reason is there to limit this discussion to just one nation when several nations have similar policies? At any rate, with all that's going on in the world, I'm sure you either didn't know about Austrian immigration policy or simply forgot about it (after all, those policies are 4 years old). So let's get back to the original discussion. Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 12:17:23 GMT -5
From the fact that children are dying in American "detention" camps due to lack of medical care, it logically follows that they don't receive sufficient medical treatment. But you didn't establish that they dies due to lack of medical treatment. Do you have any supporting data? Yes, I've posted several articles in the last several months on this topic. Didn't you notice? So your complaint is that border guards aren't putting enough people into "detention" camps in order to starve them to death? You are literally blaming me for it by calling me a hypocrite. I was well aware of the problem. Working with immigrants is literally my job, remember? Or did you forget that, along with the numerous articles I posted on immigraton related topics? I only post links here when I expect them to reach an audience. How would that be hypocritical? Oh yea, I know, you've been talking about Austria's refugee policy for years and I've ignored you. Sure Bob. Let's go with that. Or we stick to the facts and note that you've literally started to become interested in Austrian immigration policies when you noticed that you could use this angle to attack me. Or do you have any evidence of ever caring about this before you started to attack me over it? What's their source? So you were completely ignorant of American detention camps for immigrants, until you found out about Austria's immigration policies? The topic is crimes against refugees. What reason is there to limit this discussion to just one nation when several nations have similar policies? What makes you so sure about it? That I didn't mention it on a forum of four people, none of whom have any clue about Austria or its politics? Even though I have posted about immigration related topics for years, and mentioned at several points in our discussions that I work with immigrants?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2019 12:26:14 GMT -5
Oh, and by the way... [Personal attack deleted by admin]
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Post by rmarks1 on May 14, 2019 14:52:14 GMT -5
But you didn't establish that they dies due to lack of medical treatment. Do you have any supporting data? Yes, I've posted several articles in the last several months on this topic. Didn't you notice? Sorry but I didn't. Just repost the sources. I do. Obviously not. If they had a proper amount of facilities and enough agents to take care of the immigrants applications, no one would have to spend time in detention or starve. Well it did appear that it was a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2019 12:33:34 GMT -5
[Personal attack deleted by admin]
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Post by faskew on May 15, 2019 13:38:19 GMT -5
You guys play nice, please. There are only like 3 of us left and you two do 90% of the posts. 8-<
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 11:41:44 GMT -5
You guys play nice, please. There are only like 3 of us left and you two do 90% of the posts. 8-< Don't worry, it won't stay that way for long.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 12:05:34 GMT -5
[Personal attack deleted by admin]
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 9:48:07 GMT -5
LOL you are such a [ personal insult deleted by admin ]
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Post by rmarks1 on May 18, 2019 11:58:28 GMT -5
[Personal attack deleted by admin]
Ad Hominem.
Once again, you have run out of evidence.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 13:57:11 GMT -5
Don't worry, I will never run out of evidence what a [ personal insult deleted by admin ]
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Post by rmarks1 on May 18, 2019 18:19:10 GMT -5
Don't worry, I will never run out of evidence what a [ personal insult deleted by admin ]. I guess we will just have to take your word for that. As usual, you offer no supporting evidence at all. All you are really saying here is that you have completely run out of arguments. Bob
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 13:06:03 GMT -5
So much for freedom of speech.
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Post by rmarks1 on May 19, 2019 13:11:05 GMT -5
So much for freedom of speech.
You still have Freedom of Speech.
What you don't have are any more valid arguments.
Bob
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