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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 12, 2019 15:59:02 GMT -5
I never said there is no free marketplace of ideas. What I did say is that the free marketplace of ideas is being attacked by leftists attempts at oppression and censorship. Well, it is. And I've posted many cases to back that up. As for "Creation Science" and Flat Earth theories, they are too much on the fringe to attract left-wing attempts at suppression. Bob Exactly. And since people are constantly being censored and oppressed, we cannot guarantee that objectively correct ideas will succeed. We cannot guarantee that objectively correct ideas will succeed while they are being suppressed And that's why we should be against censorship and oppression. But they already have had plenty of success. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2019 19:22:28 GMT -5
But they already have had plenty of success. Bob Success in terms of what, exactly?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 12, 2019 21:20:34 GMT -5
But they already have had plenty of success. Bob Success in terms of what, exactly?
Objectivist ideas are spreading. Objectivist books are selling. And the combination of violence by some groups and the incompetence of government officials is the best advertisement for people looking for alternatives.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2019 17:08:51 GMT -5
Success in terms of what, exactly? Objectivist ideas are spreading. Objectivist books are selling. And the combination of violence by some groups and the incompetence of government officials is the best advertisement for people looking for alternatives. Bob
So selling a couple of books is your measure of success in the marketplace of ideas?
So your argument is that other ideas are selling fewer books than Objectivism?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 13, 2019 20:01:15 GMT -5
I never said there is no free marketplace of ideas. What I did say is that the free marketplace of ideas is being attacked by leftists attempts at oppression and censorship. Well, it is. And I've posted many cases to back that up. Exactly. And since people are constantly being censored and oppressed, we cannot guarantee that objectively correct ideas will succeed. There have been censorship and suppression for millennia now. Yet plenty of new ideas managed to eventually break through over the centuries. Eventually objectively correct ideas do succeed, even if they are suppressed. In the end, it was the Church's Index of Forbidden Books that failed. Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 13, 2019 20:08:42 GMT -5
Objectivist ideas are spreading. Objectivist books are selling. And the combination of violence by some groups and the incompetence of government officials is the best advertisement for people looking for alternatives. So selling a couple of books is your measure of success in the marketplace of ideas? Actually, it's a few million books. I never said that. You made that up. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2019 9:49:54 GMT -5
If it's not through selling more books than any other idea, then how can the free marketplace of ideas measure whether an idea is correct?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 14, 2019 13:45:34 GMT -5
If it's not through selling more books than any other idea, then how can the free marketplace of ideas measure whether an idea is correct?
Easy. By the number of people who accept the idea.
Notice tht people don't have to accept the idea in its entirety all at once. Acceptance of bits and pieces of the idea accepted here and there can be enough for an idea to grow.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2019 19:05:19 GMT -5
If it's not through selling more books than any other idea, then how can the free marketplace of ideas measure whether an idea is correct? Easy. By the number of people who accept the idea. Notice tht people don't have to accept the idea in its entirety all at once. Acceptance of bits and pieces of the idea accepted here and there can be enough for an idea to grow. Bob
So truth is a function of popularity?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 14, 2019 19:47:22 GMT -5
Easy. By the number of people who accept the idea. Notice tht people don't have to accept the idea in its entirety all at once. Acceptance of bits and pieces of the idea accepted here and there can be enough for an idea to grow. Bob
So truth is a function of popularity?
No. But over time, true ideas are more likely to succeed.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 8:15:03 GMT -5
So for example, Statism is a correct idea?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2019 11:37:52 GMT -5
So for example, Statism is a correct idea?
What exactly do you mean by "statism?"
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 12:48:29 GMT -5
I mean the political idea of Statism.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2019 15:06:34 GMT -5
I mean the political idea of Statism.
That's still very general. Aren't there different versions of the political idea of Statism? Which one do you mean?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2019 21:49:41 GMT -5
Why does that matter?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 15, 2019 23:04:26 GMT -5
It matters what definition of "stateism" you are using because we have to know what we are talking about. So what do you mean by "stateism?"
Is this the definition you are using?
"Definition of statism
: concentration of economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government often extending to government ownership of industry "
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2019 11:29:42 GMT -5
Obviously I mean the definition of statism that has been implemented successfully.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 16, 2019 17:08:04 GMT -5
Obviously I mean the definition of statism that has been implemented successfully.
Again, this is the dictionary definition of "stateism": "Definition of statism : concentration of economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government often extending to government ownership of industry " www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/statism
The only countries who have implemented the dictionary definition of "Stateism" successfully over any length of time have been the Leninist dictatorships and Venezuela. They all either collapsed (or, in Venezuela's case, collapsing) or shifted towards the Free Market to one degree or another.
Since they all are failures, there are no cases where stateism "has been implemented successfully."
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2019 7:47:46 GMT -5
Also, most of Europe, the United States of America, China, Japan, Russia, India, Australia, and most of Southeast Asia.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 17, 2019 13:14:55 GMT -5
Also, most of Europe, the United States of America, China, Japan, Russia, India, Australia, and most of Southeast Asia.
Incomplete sentence. What is your claim about all those countries?
Are you claiming that they fit the definition of "stateism?"
The citizens of most of those countries would be quite surprised to find out that they have government ownership of industry.
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 3:41:38 GMT -5
Most of these countries have one or several companies owned by the government. Most of these countries also have a central government that is in charge of regulating private businesses (i.e. economic controls)
Clearly, statism must be correct if all of these countries have central governments empowered with the control and ownership of markets and private industry respectively.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 18, 2019 11:22:00 GMT -5
Most of these countries have one or several companies owned by the government. Most of these countries also have a central government that is in charge of regulating private businesses (i.e. economic controls)
Clearly, statism must be correct if all of these countries have central governments empowered with the control and ownership of markets and private industry respectively.
"Most of those countries?" Not all of them? "...one or several companies owned by the government?" Again, not ALL companies?
1) Could you please give a list of those countries?
2) What percentage of the countries' business do they own?
Also
3) Exactly how far does that "empowered with the control and ownership of markets and private industry respectively" go?
Clearly, there would have to be a majority of the businesses under direct government control before the economy could be described as either "socialist" or "statist."
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 12:25:38 GMT -5
3) Exactly how far does that "empowered with the control and ownership of markets and private industry respectively" go? Who cares? They have governments that regulate and intervene in private businesses, ergo they are statist.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 18, 2019 13:06:27 GMT -5
3) Exactly how far does that "empowered with the control and ownership of markets and private industry respectively" go? Who cares? They have governments that regulate and intervene in private businesses, ergo they are statist.
Sorry but that doesn't fit the definition of "stateism." Here it is again.
Unless you can demonstrate that there is a "concentration of economic controls and planning in the hands of a highly centralized government" you don't have a case.
And BTW, where is that list of alleged statist governments?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 19:03:16 GMT -5
So what exactly is the measure of success for an idea?
When will the markets have decided that your beliefs are objectively true?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 18, 2019 19:56:51 GMT -5
So what exactly is the measure of success for an idea?
When will the markets have decided that your beliefs are objectively true?
Why are you changing the subject? And where is that list of "statist" governments?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 23:05:02 GMT -5
I'm not changing the subject. We're still debating how the market decides whether an idea is objectively correct.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 18, 2019 23:34:59 GMT -5
I'm not changing the subject. We're still debating how the market decides whether an idea is objectively correct.
But you were the one who mentioned "stateism" to begin with. You said:
"Most of these countries have one or several companies owned by the government. Most of these countries also have a central government that is in charge of regulating private businesses (i.e. economic controls)
Clearly, statism must be correct if all of these countries have central governments empowered with the control and ownership of markets and private industry respectively."
All I did was ask you for a list of those countries. Do you have that list?
Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 23:53:56 GMT -5
I'll get it once you tell me what the free market of idea's criterium for success is.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 19, 2019 0:37:15 GMT -5
I'll get it once you tell me what the free market of idea's criterium for success is.
Do you promise?
Bob
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