|
Post by faskew on Aug 7, 2018 15:09:21 GMT -5
Pagan religion was so much easier. You didn't have to believe anything, have faith, etc. All you had to do was perform the required rituals and sacrifices, and you were good to go. 8->
|
|
|
Post by raybar on Aug 7, 2018 16:44:57 GMT -5
Point 1 above - - How is an argument from force an error in logic? Our whole legal system of punishment for crime is based on it.
Point 2 above - - Do you mean that pre-Christians societies were deterministic, and it was a good thing that for Europe that Christian societies switched to belief in free will? Or do you just mean that belief in free will was better for Europe than belief in determinism would have been, regardless of what came before?
|
|
|
Post by rmarks1 on Aug 7, 2018 20:58:55 GMT -5
Point 1 above - - How is an argument from force an error in logic? Our whole legal system of punishment for crime is based on it. This is how the Argument from Force is an error in logic: philosophy.lander.edu/logic/force.htmlPunishment for a crime is not a logical argument. The latter. Belief in Free Will is better for a society than belief in Determinism. During the Golden Age of Islam, the Muslim nations were more advanced than any nation in Europe. Then they fell behind. What happened? The European nations went with Free Will (especially after Aquinas). The Muslim nations went with Determinism (God is all powerful and makes everything happen). I heard a story once about an American agricultural expert who was part of an aid program to a Muslim country. Through an interpreter, he asked the farmer what sort of crop yield he expected this year. The farmer went into a long, screaming rant for a couple of minutes. The translator said, "He says he doesn't know." Since only God can have knowledge of the future, the farmer took the expert's question to meant that he was either not devout or a fool. Bob
|
|
|
Post by faskew on Aug 8, 2018 7:36:58 GMT -5
As usual, I favor the "everything is a mix" description. I know lots of fundamentalist Christians who claim that everything that happens is part of "God's plan". What people may or may not want is not relevant. So at the same time they believe in Free Will, they also believe that God is playing them like a video game. Makes my brain hurt. 8-<
|
|
|
Post by rmarks1 on Aug 8, 2018 19:13:12 GMT -5
As usual, I favor the "everything is a mix" description. I know lots of fundamentalist Christians who claim that everything that happens is part of "God's plan". What people may or may not want is not relevant. So at the same time they believe in Free Will, they also believe that God is playing them like a video game. Makes my brain hurt. 8-<
Well God has to do something for fun. Bob
|
|
|
Post by faskew on Aug 9, 2018 7:51:43 GMT -5
I have a half-sister who is one of those types. She never makes important decisions. She prays and then does what God tells her to do. Naturally, her life has been a series of major disasters and failures that she brought upon herself. But everything that happened was part of God's plan. 8-<
|
|
|
Post by rmarks1 on Aug 9, 2018 21:10:24 GMT -5
I have a half-sister who is one of those types. She never makes important decisions. She prays and then does what God tells her to do. Naturally, her life has been a series of major disasters and failures that she brought upon herself. But everything that happened was part of God's plan. 8-<
Maybe those disasters are God's way of telling her to be logical?
Bob
|
|
|
Post by faskew on Aug 10, 2018 7:36:51 GMT -5
Not in her mind. She asks what to do - God tells her - that's it. No need for logic or thinking. Oh, and there's also the ever-popular "testing". When bad things happen to fundamentalists, it's because God is testing them to see if they will maintain their faith (just like Job). Of course, this has the internal inconsistency that if God is omniscient, then he already knows what choices people will make before the test. So what's the point of actually going through with the test? 8->
|
|
|
Post by raybar on Aug 10, 2018 8:27:41 GMT -5
Fred asked, "So what's the point of actually going through with the test?"
This shows that, although he is omniscient, god is also humble. He knows in advance what people will do, but he's mindful that he could be mistaken. Unfortunately, this insecurity in the mind of the all powerful requires that he run the test to be certain who the truly faithful are.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 12:20:11 GMT -5
These kind of arguments make me think of the novel "Flatland" to remind us that even though we think we know or can know everything, we don't. I think it's a great analogy.
|
|
|
Post by raybar on Aug 10, 2018 12:27:06 GMT -5
I loved "Flatland" when I first saw it. There's a copy around here . . . somewhere. You don't know any librarians who work for free, do you?
But seriously, according to many articles I've read, our 4 dimensional universe (x, y, z, time) may be imbedded in a larger dimensional space that we can't detect. So far, anyway.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 12:47:17 GMT -5
I never did see the movie (but I see now that the movie is on Youtube which I'm now planning to watch), but I did love the novel from the time I first read it. It always stuck with me because it made me think ways I never thought before.
I am putting a Youtube video on this topic by Carl Sagan on the Video Forum.
|
|
|
Post by rmarks1 on Aug 10, 2018 14:46:43 GMT -5
These kind of arguments make me think of the novel "Flatland" to remind us that even though we think we know or can know everything, we don't. I think it's a great analogy.
I loved Flatland too. Yes, it reminds us that there is always something new we can learn.
Bob
|
|
|
Post by faskew on Aug 10, 2018 15:14:44 GMT -5
I enjoyed the Simpson's episode in which Homer goes to Flatland, sort of. 8->
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 16:42:46 GMT -5
Don't let anyone tell you guys you aren't great at diversion.
|
|
|
Post by arthur on Aug 15, 2018 6:34:26 GMT -5
Free will: what bit of me is doing this free will stuff? Some part of my brain I suppose. But isn't the brain "just" a bunch of neurons, one firing in response to another. Is there some particular bunch of neurons that have a cunning free will property? Or maybe this free will is something external to my brain - perhaps my soul? I've got one of those, right? or perhaps some other ghost in the machine. Or maybe, this free will doesn't really exist and is an illusion - and any choices I make are really hobson's choice. I'm content that my actions are determined by the current state of my "wet-ware" and situation it finds itself in. It's current state includes the sum of its experiences to date.
|
|
|
Post by rmarks1 on Aug 17, 2018 21:57:01 GMT -5
Free will: what bit of me is doing this free will stuff? Some part of my brain I suppose. But isn't the brain "just" a bunch of neurons, one firing in response to another. Is there some particular bunch of neurons that have a cunning free will property? Or maybe this free will is something external to my brain - perhaps my soul? I've got one of those, right? or perhaps some other ghost in the machine. Or maybe, this free will doesn't really exist and is an illusion - and any choices I make are really hobson's choice. I'm content that my actions are determined by the current state of my "wet-ware" and situation it finds itself in. It's current state includes the sum of its experiences to date.
Good to see you Arthur.
If free will is an illusion, how does that illusion work?
Bob
|
|
|
Post by faskew on Aug 18, 2018 8:35:17 GMT -5
And if it's free, do you still have to pay sales tax? 8->
|
|
|
Post by raybar on Aug 18, 2018 9:49:42 GMT -5
Bob asked, "If free will is an illusion, how does that illusion work?"
How does it work? That's the question, isn't it?
How does the brain work? How does consciousness work? How do emotions work?
I don't think we have a very good understanding of any of it. Perhaps one day researchers will figure it all out. Perhaps not.
|
|
|
Post by rmarks1 on Aug 18, 2018 20:47:08 GMT -5
Bob asked, "If free will is an illusion, how does that illusion work?" How does it work? That's the question, isn't it? How does the brain work? How does consciousness work? How do emotions work? I don't think we have a very good understanding of any of it. Perhaps one day researchers will figure it all out. Perhaps not.
Remember the paradoxes of Zeno?
"Zeno's paradoxes are a set of philosophical problems generally thought to have been devised by Greek philosopher Zeno of Elea (c. 490–430 BC) to support Parmenides' doctrine that contrary to the evidence of one's senses, the belief in plurality and change is mistaken, and in particular that motion is nothing but an illusion."
For centuries, there were no good refutations for Zeno's paradoxes. Did people stop believing in motion then? Of course not.
It's the same for Free Will. We HAVE TO live our lives as if there is Free Will. Don't believe it? Then try living for one day as if you totally believed that there was no free will. See if you can get through the day.
Bob
|
|
|
Post by raybar on Aug 18, 2018 23:01:05 GMT -5
I said "I don't think we have a very good understanding . . . "
Saying that we don't understand something very well something doesn't mean that I don't believe in it.
|
|
|
Post by rmarks1 on Aug 18, 2018 23:53:54 GMT -5
I said "I don't think we have a very good understanding . . . " Saying that we don't understand something very well something doesn't mean that I don't believe in it.
I misunderstood. Thanks for the correction, Ray. Well that's the reason we have a board. Best cure for misunderstanding.
Bob
|
|