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Post by rmarks1 on Sept 22, 2013 22:10:53 GMT -5
The shooter at the Washington Navy Yard brought a shotgun which he bought from a licensed gun dealer, not at a gun show. He had a background check WHICH HE PASSED! If Obama's gun law had been in place, it would not have prevented this particular tragedy. That law would have had no effect.
In Chicago, there were a bunch of people shot last week. Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the country. That didn't prevent these criminals from getting guns.
So why are politicians pushing laws that don't work?
Bob Marks
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joan
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Post by joan on Sept 23, 2013 9:55:19 GMT -5
The people in places like Chicago get their guns illegally from those who purchase the guns in places where gun laws are lax. If those places had stricter controls there would be less guns in places like Chicago. There is a direct correlation between the two.
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Post by rmarks1 on Sept 23, 2013 14:35:13 GMT -5
The people in places like Chicago get their guns illegally from those who purchase the guns in places where gun laws are lax. If those places had stricter controls there would be less guns in places like Chicago. There is a direct correlation between the two. Then New York should also have a big murder rate. But we don't. New York City has more than three times the population of Chicago, but we have fewer murders. And places that don't have gun laws should have high murder rates. But their murder rates are below Chicago's. How come? Your point about illegal purchases is interesting. Criminals don't care about breaking the law. Gun restrictions only stop law abiding people from owning guns. Bob |
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joan
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Post by joan on Sept 23, 2013 15:27:04 GMT -5
I goofed
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joan
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Post by joan on Sept 23, 2013 15:29:53 GMT -5
Goofed again. Will try later!
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joan
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Post by joan on Sept 23, 2013 16:14:21 GMT -5
I'm back. Here's what I was trying to say: Anecdotally, I have an acquaintance in a small town in Kansas, population approximately 400. Last year, in a home invasion, a farmer, his wife & son were murdered. That's a murder percentage rate of .75%. New York City, with a population of, let's say 8 Million had 419 murders last year. That's a murder rate of .005%. Chicago, with a population of 2.7 Million had 500 murders last year. That's a murder rate of .0185%. I used this to calculate: www.percentagecalculator.net/I used the FBI statistics: www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/19/fbi-chicago-officially-america-murder-capital/So, the small town in Kansas has a higher murder rate than either city for 2012. I don't know much about Chicago; it's policing, it's gang troubles. Maybe Deb could help here, or Jerry, if he ever shows up again. |
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joan
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Post by joan on Sept 23, 2013 16:21:48 GMT -5
PS--According to the FBI link above, Flint MI was worse, having a population of 101,558 & reporting 63 murders, a percentage of .0620. But, that little town in Kansas where nothing ever happens had, percentage-wise more murders than even Flint.
We kill lots of people in the United States with guns. Not safe anywhere far as I can see.
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joan
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Post by joan on Sept 23, 2013 16:28:45 GMT -5
Actually Bob, I can find the link if I must, less & less of the population own guns, but the ones who do buy more & more. As for your comment: "New York should also have a big murder rate." 419 a year is big enough for me. You too if you're one of them.
I really don't see your point. I wonder, can we find enough info to prove that if we took all the small towns & added up the numbers they would overcome the percentages even in Chicago? Should I make that my winter project? If so, then what will your point be?
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joan
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Post by joan on Sept 23, 2013 16:34:20 GMT -5
I also heard today on the Cable news that the Navy Yard Shooter would Not have passed if the states where he had been arrested for shooting guns publicly & being a public nuisance with guns had supplied that information; consolidated that information; to an agency concerned with licensing of guns. The guy was a known nudnick & should not have passed if the information concerning him was readily available to someone paying attention to these matters.
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Post by rmarks1 on Sept 23, 2013 22:18:49 GMT -5
Hi Joan,
Comparing a small town to New York or Chicago is like comparing apples to oranges. The fact is that this particular small town had only one incident of murder. A better procedure would be to group a bunch of small towns together so that they would have a total population of over one million, and then compare their combined murder rate to New York and Chicago.
The point I am making is that there is a lot more to murder rates than availability of guns. As I mentioned earlier, Chicago and New York have strict gun laws and highly different murder rates. The Navy Yard shooter legally bought a shotgun (not an assault rifle) from a licensed dealer. The shooter also had a background check WHICH HE PASSED. The proposed federal restrictions would not have affected this case even one tiny bit. So what good is that law?
Bob Marks
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Post by rmarks1 on Sept 23, 2013 22:21:32 GMT -5
I also heard today on the Cable news that the Navy Yard Shooter would Not have passed if the states where he had been arrested for shooting guns publicly & being a public nuisance with guns had supplied that information; consolidated that information; to an agency concerned with licensing of guns. The guy was a known nudnick & should not have passed if the information concerning him was readily available to someone paying attention to these matters. Of course I am in favor of keeping guns away from the mentally ill. You are right here. A consolidated data base would help in those cases and I agree with you on that point. A simple consolidation of data would not require much change in present laws. Bob |
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Post by juliet on Sept 29, 2013 18:11:07 GMT -5
The people dying in Chicago have guns. These are gang members shooting each other over their gang crap. If having guns automatically equaled safety, they should be the safest people in Chicago.
As long as the NRA continues to push for weakened gun laws and screams 'Confiscation!' every time a law is suggested, we can expect more of these events. They have become depressingly common.
The Navy Yard shooter even availed himself of VA mental health services, but apparently didn't seek sufficient help. He'd gotten to the point of imagining microwave generators aimed at him. That should have been enough to disqualify him for gun ownership and gotten his clearance revoked.
We must make every effort to provide adequate and affordable mental health care for everyone who needs it, provide other assistance as needed for people who have other problems, and stop our fictional love affairs with guns as solutions to problems. Among other things. Then maybe mass shootings will become rarities again.
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Post by rmarks1 on Sept 29, 2013 20:15:55 GMT -5
The people dying in Chicago have guns. These are gang members shooting each other over their gang crap. If having guns automatically equaled safety, they should be the safest people in Chicago. As long as the NRA continues to push for weakened gun laws and screams 'Confiscation!' every time a law is suggested, we can expect more of these events. They have become depressingly common. The Navy Yard shooter even availed himself of VA mental health services, but apparently didn't seek sufficient help. He'd gotten to the point of imagining microwave generators aimed at him. That should have been enough to disqualify him for gun ownership and gotten his clearance revoked. We must make every effort to provide adequate and affordable mental health care for everyone who needs it, provide other assistance as needed for people who have other problems, and stop our fictional love affairs with guns as solutions to problems. Among other things. Then maybe mass shootings will become rarities again. Law abiding citizens increase their safety with gun ownership. Gang members don't carry guns for safety. They carry them to kill. Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation. It also has the highest murder rate. Criminals don't care about the law. Make the laws tougher and criminals will still get their guns illegally. EXISTING laws would have been enough to stop the Navy Yard shooter. He cleared the security check! Mass killings ARE rarities and always have been. There is no evidence that any of the laws proposed would have stopped even one mass killing. Guns "cause" mass killings? Then swimming pools "cause" drownings, cars "cause" car accidents. and pens "cause" bad checks. If we get rid of swimming pools and cars, we could save thousands of lives a year. Eliminate pens and you eliminate bad checks. Bob Marks |
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joan
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Post by joan on Sept 30, 2013 10:55:30 GMT -5
"Eliminate pens and you eliminate bad checks." Strawman. "The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position" www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.htmlIncludes the rest of that last paragraph as well, but the last sentence deserves a special highlight. Really Bob. People are deliberately killed with guns, that is the raison d'être. I, btw, support the second amendment, though not in the same way the NRA does. |
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Post by juliet on Sept 30, 2013 19:51:06 GMT -5
Where did I say that guns 'cause' mass killings? They make them easier, but they don't cause them.
Have you ever been in a situation so confusing you can barely see straight? Guess what happens in a shooting. Now arm people. Everybody will be firing at the 'second shooter' -- each other.
Here in Georgia, police managed to stop a man from killing people because he made his threat at a methadone clinic. They had him under surveillance as he bought a shotgun and practiced using it. Then, when he was on his way to commit mass murder, they arrested him.
The problem is complicated, and there are no easy answers. Unless we want to go the Judge Death route and kill everyone on the planet.
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