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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 17, 2018 16:38:23 GMT -5
So what are your examples for gender roles that have not changed? How about reproduction? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 13:36:20 GMT -5
So reproduction is a gender role?
How do you define the term "gender role"?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 18, 2018 19:02:13 GMT -5
So reproduction is a gender role? How do you define the term "gender role"? "A gender role, also known as a sex role,[1] is a social role encompassing a range of behaviors and attitudes that are generally considered acceptable, appropriate, or desirable for people based on their actual or perceived sex or sexuality.[2][3]... The term gender role was first coined by John Money in 1955, during the course of his study of intersex individuals, to describe the manners in which these individuals expressed their status as a male or female in a situation where no clear biological assignment existed." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_roleBut the recent biological research in Austria and the Netherlands shows that there is a biological basis for the gender roles of homosexuals and transsexuals. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2018 14:40:24 GMT -5
So " a range of behaviors and attitudes that are generally considered acceptable, appropriate, or desirable for people based on their actual or perceived sex or sexuality" are all biologically determined and never change?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 21, 2018 20:06:02 GMT -5
So " a range of behaviors and attitudes that are generally considered acceptable, appropriate, or desirable for people based on their actual or perceived sex or sexuality" are all biologically determined and never change? The definition you just gave above does have the word "actual" in it, right? What does "actual" mean here? Could it mean "actual biologically based sex or sexuality?" "Acceptable, appropriate, or desirable", on the other hand, are matters of opinion. Opinions can change. Basic biology, by contrast, does not. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 5:36:13 GMT -5
So " a range of behaviors and attitudes that are generally considered acceptable, appropriate, or desirable for people based on their actual or perceived sex or sexuality" are all biologically determined and never change? The definition you just gave above does have the word "actual" in it, right? What does "actual" mean here? Could it mean "actual biologically based sex or sexuality?" "Acceptable, appropriate, or desirable", on the other hand, are matters of opinion. Opinions can change. Basic biology, by contrast, does not. Bob Well, your argument is based on the claim that everything gender related is always based on biology anyway, so I don't see how it could be anything else. Much like "behaviors and attitudes" towards gender are, based on your argument, always and inherently determined by biology. So based on this self-evidently correct belief, women's brains have become significantly more male in the last century, while many men's brains have become female due to many more men outing themselves as gay these days.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 23, 2018 9:21:09 GMT -5
The definition you just gave above does have the word "actual" in it, right? What does "actual" mean here? Could it mean "actual biologically based sex or sexuality?" "Acceptable, appropriate, or desirable", on the other hand, are matters of opinion. Opinions can change. Basic biology, by contrast, does not. Bob Well, your argument is based on the claim that everything gender related is always based on biology anyway, so I don't see how it could be anything else. Much like "behaviors and attitudes" towards gender are, based on your argument, always and inherently determined by biology. So based on this self-evidently correct belief, women's brains have become significantly more male in the last century, while many men's brains have become female due to many more men outing themselves as gay these days. Non Sequitur. The biology was always there. Transgenders and homosexuals simply hid in order to avoid social rejection and punishment. Are you claiming that the sexuality of a person in the closet changes when they come out of the closet? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2018 11:58:19 GMT -5
Yes, gender roles have not changed, even though far more women actually work in management related jobs than at any other time in history. Gender roles, which, by your own definition by the way, include "behaviors and attitudes".
It's just that we approve of it more, because apparently approval is not an "attitude" or a "behavior" by your definition.
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Post by faskew on Apr 24, 2018 12:05:02 GMT -5
Like I keep saying, I think gender roles are a mix of biology and sociology. But when most people see the words, "gender roles" they tend to think of the sociological aspects - the clothing, actions, etc., assigned to each sex by their cultural norms. But that's just me. 8->
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2018 12:21:35 GMT -5
I can see people making a reasonable case when it comes to individual gender identity, because of course a lot of my identity is influenced by my biological body and my anatomy.
But I don't think gender roles are a mix of biology and sociology, because we know for a fact that people's expectations with regards to what's appropriate for a person of a specific gender have changed a lot over time.
Even the notion that taking care of children is a "woman's job" is not biologically determined, but rather than outgrowth of early modern core family structures. Plenty of premodern societies had childcare duties carried out by entire extended families, for example, which flies in the face of biological determinism there.
Claiming that women are biologically determined to be caretakers and housewives is no different than the beliefs of earlier scientists that women's brains were too fragile and underdeveloped to be capable of coping with academic education or management positions in major industries.
Much like this article claiming that homosexual men have "female brains" looks very much like a re-heating of earlier prejudices of homosexual men as "feminine" and "unmanly" and therefore somehow deficient in their ability to present as masculine.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 24, 2018 22:09:03 GMT -5
Yes, gender roles have not changed, even though far more women actually work in management related jobs than at any other time in history. Gender roles, which, by your own definition by the way, include "behaviors and attitudes". It's just that we approve of it more, because apparently approval is not an "attitude" or a "behavior" by your definition. You're changing the subject. We were talking about sexuality. Now you are talking about women working in management. Does working in management have some connection to sexuality? Please explain. Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 24, 2018 22:11:14 GMT -5
Like I keep saying, I think gender roles are a mix of biology and sociology. But when most people see the words, "gender roles" they tend to think of the sociological aspects - the clothing, actions, etc., assigned to each sex by their cultural norms. But that's just me. 8-> Sociologists emphasize cultural aspects because they know nothing of biology and they have to produce papers to get grants. Bob
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 24, 2018 22:24:13 GMT -5
I can see people making a reasonable case when it comes to individual gender identity, because of course a lot of my identity is influenced by my biological body and my anatomy. Exactly the point! Biology is the foundation of gender. But I don't think gender roles are a mix of biology and sociology, because we know for a fact that people's expectations with regards to what's appropriate for a person of a specific gender have changed a lot over time. Even the notion that taking care of children is a "woman's job" is not biologically determined, but rather than outgrowth of early modern core family structures. Plenty of premodern societies had childcare duties carried out by entire extended families, for example, which flies in the face of biological determinism there. Claiming that women are biologically determined to be caretakers and housewives is no different than the beliefs of earlier scientists that women's brains were too fragile and underdeveloped to be capable of coping with academic education or management positions in major industries. Much like this article claiming that homosexual men have "female brains" looks very much like a re-heating of earlier prejudices of homosexual men as "feminine" and "unmanly" and therefore somehow deficient in their ability to present as masculine. [/quote] It seems that there is some confusion here between gender roles and gender identity. There are plenty of studies showing that gender identity is biological. Here is another one: "Gender Identity is Biological, Study Says" abcnews.go.com/Health/gender-identity-biological-study/story?id=29335854As to the attitudes societies have towards gender, well yes, of course, that obviously has changed over time. Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2018 21:30:07 GMT -5
No, there is no confusion. The article you posted says it plainly: Homosexual men have female brains. They are feminine men, and therefore different from masculine men.
That is a reiteration of classic homophobic stereotypes: The homosexual man as the feminine un-manly man, the man who is not a real man.
Meanwhile, you still haven't explained how male anatomy can determine both male and female gender identity.
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 29, 2018 0:21:19 GMT -5
No, there is no confusion. The article you posted says it plainly: Homosexual men have female brains. They are feminine men, and therefore different from masculine men. That is a reiteration of classic homophobic stereotypes: The homosexual man as the feminine un-manly man, the man who is not a real man. The problem with that is their conclusions were based on scientific studies and physical facts, not social facts. Where did I make that claim? Bob
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2018 12:41:30 GMT -5
No, there is no confusion. The article you posted says it plainly: Homosexual men have female brains. They are feminine men, and therefore different from masculine men. That is a reiteration of classic homophobic stereotypes: The homosexual man as the feminine un-manly man, the man who is not a real man. The problem with that is their conclusions were based on scientific studies and physical facts, not social facts. And your "scientific facts" say that homophobic prejudices are correct - that gay men are insufficiently male, that they are always feminine, that they think like women etc. because clumsy labels for different brain structures trump observable behavior. When you claimed that gender is biologically determined. If your sexual anatomy determines your gender, then how is it possible that transgender people exist? Or are transgender people not real (another old homophobic belief)?
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Post by rmarks1 on Apr 29, 2018 15:52:08 GMT -5
The problem with that is their conclusions were based on scientific studies and physical facts, not social facts. And your "scientific facts" say that homophobic prejudices are correct - that gay men are insufficiently male, that they are always feminine, that they think like women etc. because clumsy labels for different brain structures trump observable behavior. Not at all. A prejudice is a false conclusion based on misinterpretation of facts. There is no scientific scale of "maleness" or "femaleness" that I know of. But I already posted links to several scientific studies in Austria and the Netherlands that show there are real, objective, observable, bio-chemical differences in the brains of transgender people. Transgender people do exist and their brain chemistry is demonstrably different. If transgender people are not real, then "transgender" is a social construct and not an objective, physical, observable fact. That would mean you are in agreement with the homophobes about homosexuality being a social construct. Bob
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