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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 13, 2014 5:04:38 GMT -5
Old lady arrives home to find that her house has been stolen.
Twenty "settlers" (with sleeping bags), accompanied by private armed security and backed by Israeli police forces, entered the Palestinian house and started clearing it of the family's belongings. This is how they've taken over thousands of Palestinian homes and farms. They just arrive in large groups and move in, while the Israeli army or private Israeli security agents (usually off-duty soldiers) provide protection.
You're the legal owner and you've lived here all your life? Too bad. Your house belongs to Israel now, so fuck off or you'll be shot.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 13, 2014 5:15:43 GMT -5
Here they are stealing a Palestinian farm.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 13, 2014 5:28:27 GMT -5
An Israeli "settler" gets stuck in barbed wire in Hebron while trying to infiltrate into a Palestinian house.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 13, 2014 5:32:08 GMT -5
A group of Israeli settlers in Hebron in the occupied West Bank stealing olives from Palestinian farmland. If you think that's no big deal, bear in mind that these olive growers are dirt poor and these olives represent their only income.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 13, 2014 5:42:07 GMT -5
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 13, 2014 6:36:45 GMT -5
Israeli checkpoint. To deter Palestinians from travelling within Palestine, Israel operates a network of checkpoints where Palestinians are forced to wait several hours (usually in extremely high temperatures) before showing their ID and being allowed (or not) to proceed on their journey. At every checkpoint they are subjected to insults and abuse. Bear in mind they are in their own country, whereas the soldiers are not.
Israeli Jews can travel freely on Jewish-only roads, and are free to travel wherever they like.
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Post by raybar on Jul 13, 2014 15:43:25 GMT -5
It is my suspicion that Israel will conduct ethnic cleansing until there is not a single Muslin, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh, Atheist ... etc ... left with Israel itself, or in the Left Bank, or the Palestinian Territories, or the Golan Heights. Then the fundamentalist extremists will start getting rid of the liberals, then the moderates, and then the conservatives. Finally they will have what they want -- the clock turned back two or three thousand years, except with nuclear weapons.
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 14, 2014 9:33:06 GMT -5
Your "suspicion" disgusts me ray. That's all I can say right now, &, I'm certainly not an apologist for Israel.
I'm honestly too revolted to say anything further to you at the moment, except----your avatar may have a crystal ball but You DON'T.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 14, 2014 10:04:34 GMT -5
Well say what you think, Joan. Spit it out! You surely can't doubt that the Zionist plan is to take over the entire region? The founders of Israel always made it clear that that was the plan. And here's the reality: More and more land is grabbed every day. There's very little of Palestine left, and the Palestinian people are being treated by Israel the way Jews were treated by the Nazis. Would you seriously argue that this isn't ethnic cleansing?
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 14, 2014 10:40:24 GMT -5
I think they should have taken over the region a long time ago; I don't think they should have given back any land ever. I despise the way they are doing it. If it had been up to me, I would have dispersed the Palestinians into Jordan decades ago.
I don't like the way they've handled it, I hate how they are doing it, it makes me think that since they have done it So Badly, So Cruelly, that maybe it is not worth doing Anymore. If they continue fouling it up, then yes, I am left wondering exactly what should be done about Israel. After my generation, OUR generation, is gone, there will be no one left who remembers why Israel began in the first place. But I won't be around to know, & neither will you.
Satisfied? I doubt it. I've picked my "side" & it is Israel. If I saw the Palestinians with a great leader like Mandela, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, someone with moral clarity who inspires people, I might change my mind real quick. I don't.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 14, 2014 10:50:13 GMT -5
It doesn't bother you that they massacred thousands of Palestinians in order to steal their land? And that they're still doing it? And what right, in your opinion, did the early Zionists have to establish a state in somebody else's country? And/or what right does the current crop of Jewish "settlers" have to steal Palestinian homes and farms? Are you saying that because they're Jewish they have some God-given right to murder people and steal their land? Or are you saying that it doesn't bother you whether they have justification or not, but that they should just do it regardless?
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 14, 2014 10:59:43 GMT -5
It bothers me tremendously. It bothers me to know the USA did the exact same thing to our Native Americans, as well as Canada & Australia re: the Aborigines. There is No God, therefore they have no God-given right. I listened to your Jewish atheist, above. He has a good point that atheism goes after only Christianity, primarily, but otherwise he is saying nothing new. And neither are you.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 14, 2014 11:13:47 GMT -5
And so? You said you support Israel I'm interested to know why. If it isn't on religious grounds, then on what grounds? I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning. It has always puzzled my why and how anyone could support or defend Israel. As an entity it has always seemed to me to represent everything that is evil and despicable in the world. Racism, religious fanaticism, discrimination, torture, theft of land and property and so on. I can think of nothing good at all about Israel. To me it's like a cancerous growth that's growing and becoming more threatening every day, choking off all the healthy tissue around it. And I have yet to hear a reasonable or a logical argument in favour of Zionism, or justifying Israel's policies.
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Post by raybar on Jul 14, 2014 11:40:06 GMT -5
In response to Joan's first message above ---
It is my suspicion and my fear that, behind the scenes, fundamentalist insanity is in control of Israel, or at least that they have enough political power to cause trouble and prevent any long-term solution to Israeli-Palestinian relations until they get what they want, which is a Zionist state with no room for anyone else. To quote a woman I saw screaming at a reporter on the news, "This is our land. God gave it to us. Everyone knows that."
I hope that I am wrong.
It is my more moderate suspicion, as the maps Zak posted above suggest, that Israel wants international recognition of its national borders as including all of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip -- that is, all the land from the Sea on their west to the borders of Jordan and Syria on their east, and from the border of Lebanon to their north and Egypt to their south (well, sort of to the south). And it is my fear that they will do whatever it takss to make that happen.
I hope I am wrong.
===========
My avatar is from an old theatrical poster.
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 14, 2014 13:28:22 GMT -5
Zak--I'm thinking about how to reply to your question, not ignoring it.
Ray--The news always picks the screamers to highlight. If she is from NYC she was probably screaming on the news regarding the mosque near Ground Zero.
Before you placed your avatar I have known of this picture. It's kind of iconic, I've seen it many times. Would you happen to know the production it represented?
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 14, 2014 13:32:46 GMT -5
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 14, 2014 13:34:05 GMT -5
I don't think he's a real guy.
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Post by raybar on Jul 14, 2014 13:48:41 GMT -5
--- screening woman was in Jerusalem, within sight of the Western Wall
--- yes, that is the same Alexander poster
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 14, 2014 15:15:15 GMT -5
--- screening woman was in Jerusalem, within sight of the Western Wall And so this screaming woman speaks for every Jew world-wide who wants Israel to exist? You know better than that. I remember the very first exchange I had with you ray, & I left you with a very negative impression. I was living in Lynn, MA, worked in Cambridge & many Jews I met came from Newton MA & they called it "Jewtown MA". You said you were from Newton, I said, "Oh, you mean JEWton, & wow you were pissed. My explanation that it was a joke told to me by Jews from Newton wasn't seen as funny by you. Just an aside. I digress a lot.
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Post by raybar on Jul 14, 2014 15:39:46 GMT -5
No, of course "screaming woman" doesn't speak for every Jew or every Israeli and probably not even for everyone in her own family. But she does articulate a fundamentalist view that frightens me, and it frightens me regardless of who is speaking and regardless of what religion the speaker follows: "god said so."
=====
I do not remember the Jewton joke. I don't know (or care) what the ethnic breakdown of the city is (pretty diverse, I think), but Newton does have a substantial Jewish population.
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 14, 2014 15:53:07 GMT -5
1. No, of course "screaming woman" doesn't speak for every Jew or every Israeli and probably not even for everyone in her own family. But she does articulate a fundamentalist view that frightens me, and it frightens me regardless of who is speaking and regardless of what religion the speaker follows: "god said so." ===== 2. I do not remember the Jewton joke. I don't know (or care) what the ethnic breakdown of the city is (pretty diverse, I think), but Newton does have a substantial Jewish population. 1. Me, too! 2. I'm glad you don't remember. Now, gaze into my Crystal Ball & you will again forget!
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 15, 2014 16:52:43 GMT -5
And so? You said you support Israel I'm interested to know why. If it isn't on religious grounds, then on what grounds? I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning. It has always puzzled my why and how anyone could support or defend Israel. As an entity it has always seemed to me to represent everything that is evil and despicable in the world. Racism, religious fanaticism, discrimination, torture, theft of land and property and so on. I can think of nothing good at all about Israel. To me it's like a cancerous growth that's growing and becoming more threatening every day, choking off all the healthy tissue around it. And I have yet to hear a reasonable or a logical argument in favour of Zionism, or justifying Israel's policies. I support Israel because I'm a Jew. Because I was born after the Holocaust & I knew very kindly people with tattoos on their wrists. Because my older, kindly, loving relatives wanted Jews to have a homeland. Because for thousands of years we say "NEXT Year in Jerusalem". Because my grandma loved Ben-Gurion & my dad was proud of the Stern Gang. Because my grandparents left Europe in fear of their lives. Because we want a home where all Jews are welcome. Because as a child, Israel was much more secular & socialist. Because of the kibbutz. I find the Muslim treatment of women to be a cancerous growth. I find their treatment of other religions in their sphere chokes off all the healthy tissue around it. I don't care what YOU consider reasonable or logical in favor of Israel. Hamas thinks it can ignore Egypt's peace proposal, that they can chip away like the annoying insects they are. Biting buzzing insects are stepped on. They use their populace as pawns. They are not a democratic choice. I choose Israel, whether you or Ray like it or not. I hate religious fanaticism of all stripes. I hate a lot of what Israel is doing & I do speak out against the extremists. There are many Palestinians living in my neighborhood & we all get along.
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 15, 2014 17:56:39 GMT -5
You're in denial. Being a Jew is not a good enough reason to support Israel and condone terrorism, mass murder, land theft, discrimination and the same class of brutality that the Jews of Europe were subjected to by the Nazis in the 1930s. As a Jew, your sympathies should be with the victims, and the victims in this century are the Palestinians.
Ben Gurion was a terrorist. The Stern Gang were scum of the earth. People who forced families out of their homes at gunpoint, and massacred thousands of women and children. The Stern Gang were no better than Hitler's henchmen. When I was in Germany I met Nazis who worshipped Hitler, Himmler, Mengele, Hess, Eichmann etc. Because they were German. They thought these were great men. You are no different when you say you support Zionists who slaughtered thousands of Palestinians so that they could steal their land. In fact what is the difference between Nazism and Zionism? They are cut from the same cloth. No one admired the Zionist Movement more than Adolf Hitler.
That you attempt to justify your support of the terrorist-apartheid state of Israel by invoking the memory of the Jews who were persecuted by the Nazis I find nauseating. These would have been the last people to approve of what Israel is doing today. Most European Jews were opposed to Israel after the war. Everything that happened to the Jews of Europe - the poor Jews - in the 1930s is now happening to the Palestinians. The discrimination, the second-class citizenship, the restriction on their movements, the daily humiliation and persecution inflicted on them by IDF soldiers, the middle-of-the-night raids on their homes, the torture, the ghettoization, the dehumanization. This is Nazism, and it is being practised by Jews in Israel.
Your grandparents left Europe in fear of their lives. So what? Millions of emigrants left their country in fear of their lives. Both my father and my grandfather left their homes in fear of their lives during WW2, to fight the Nazis and save the Jews. It makes me sick to hear European Jews going to live in Israel (on stolen Palestinian land) to escape the "antisemitism in Europe". Sixty million Europeans, including members of my own family, died fighting Hitler's army, fighting racism and antisemitism. If European Jews were ever victims, they stopped being victims when Hitler was defeated.
You want a home where all Jews are welcome? Jews were welcome in many countries. If you are ever in Dublin, look in St Stephens Green and you will see a statue erected by Irish Jews thanking the Irish people for welcoming them to Ireland when they were being persecuted by the Nazis. The US was not so welcoming, turning away boatloads of Jewish asylum seekers in New York harbour. There was no need for Jews to go to Israel then, and there is no need for them to go there now. They are no longer the persecuted. Today they are the persecutors.
As for Muslim treatment of women, in the first place what has that got to do with anything? Are you seriously suggesting that because, in your ignorant opinion, Muslim women are treated badly, Israel is justified in stealing Palestinian land and slaughtering Palestinian men, women and children? And in the second place Muslim women are actually treated with respect in Muslim countries. They are certainly not treated with respect in Israel.
You say you hate a lot of what Israel is doing. But you seem to be okay with Israel being established on Palestinian land, and with Palestinians being murdered or banished to squalid refugee camps in their own country, where they are forced to endure atrocious living condition. And you seem to be okay with the IDF slaughtering innocent civilians in their beds - people who have no bomb shelters and nowhere to go. The most well-equipped army in the world - thanks to US taxpayers - dropping thousand pound bombs on a defenseless population. If you don't condemn that "because you're Jewish", then in my opinion your just a piece of - well, I'm sure I don't have to spell it out.
Israel is a terrorist state, built on stolen land soaked in the blood of the Palestinian people it belonged to and still belongs to. History is not on the side of Israel. Nor is time. It will be wiped out. And the sooner the better. And now that I know you're an apologist for Zionist terrorism, I won't be reading or responding to any of your post here from now on.
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Post by debutante on Jul 15, 2014 21:50:42 GMT -5
And now that I know you're an apologist for Zionist terrorism, I won't be reading or responding to any of your post here from now on. Dear Zak: You might want to remind yourself that Joan has always been a very good and loyal friend. She has consistently defended you in the past. I honestly do not believe political discourse should reach the point that "hard feelings" begin to destroy the companionship the two of you have had over the years. NEITHER OF YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING ABOUT THE SITUATION ANYWAY!!!! In that case, what is the point of escalating this to something drastic? I don't have a horse in this race. Politics don't particularly interest me. Joan, however, is important to me. --Debutante
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 16, 2014 6:04:07 GMT -5
Deb, I don't need the friendship of people who support the murder of children in their beds. I asked Joan to give her rationale for supporting Israel, because, as I said, I have never heard any Israel supporter give a logical or reasonable basis for their position. Her "rationale" was the same "rationale" I've heard many times in the past: "I don't need a rationale, because I'm Jewish, and that's just the way it is". It's the same smug, complacent attitude that is prevalent among Israelis who say things like "we are where we are", and "the reality on the ground". As in, "Yes, we killed your parents and stole your land 20 years ago, but get over it already. It's our land now, and you're not getting it back. It is what it is." Etc. Of course it's all predicated on the notion of Jews being entitled to special privileges because "they" (as if they were only one tribe) were "persecuted throughout history". And certainly Jews were persecuted. But so were Arabs (the Crusades? The British and Turkish occupations?) The Irish were subjected to 800 years of brutal occupation by the English. In the 1800s over a million Irish people were deliberately starved to death in an Irish Holocaust. The Irish suffered more than the Jews throughout history. And there have been other "holocausts". In Russia. In China. In Vietnam, 2 million people were murdered by soldiers from your country. I'm sick of Jews playing the "eternal victim" card. Jews have not been victimized any more than Blacks, Irish, Arabs, Native Americans, Aborigines, several South American races and others. They've been getting away with this victim crap for too long. In Israel, it's waved around like a "get out of jail free" card. We can do whatever we like, because we're victims. We don't have to justify our actions, even if we murder thousands of innocent people whose land we have stolen. They have been getting away with murder - and not just murder, but genocide - for decades by playing the victim card. You don't approve of Israeli soldiers shooting Palestinian children? Oh, then you're antisemitic. You're against Jewish "settlers" killing Palestinians and taking over their land? Well, you're obviously a Jew hater. Remember the Holocaust! And if you're Jewish and you're opposed to Israel's policies, then you're a self-hating Jew. I grew up in Ireland, and I saw no victimization or discrimination against Jews. On the contrary, Irish Jews had - and still have - an above average standard of living, and above average social status. I don't deny for one minute that antisemitism exists, but only among a tiny minority of Nazi wannabes. Islamophobia exists too. Discrimination against blacks exists, and - especially in the US - discrimination against Hispanics. But only Jews embrace and nurture their victimhood, and hold it up as a justification for defending Israeli state terrorism. It is NOT a justification. Jews are not special You certainly do have a horse in this race, whether you like it or not. It's your tax dollars that pay for the missiles that are fired into densely-populated neighborhoods of Gaza, killing and maiming innocent and defenseless people in their beds. It's your support as an American - whether tacit ("look the other way") or active - that allows Israel to carry out its policies. These atrocities would not happen without the support of the American people. The occupation of Gaza is WRONG. It's ILLEGAL, but it's also morally WRONG and REPREHENSIBLE. There can be no justification for a powerful army slaughtering innocent civilians who have nowhere to go, and nowhere to take cover. All they can do is sit and wait for the bombs to arrive. It's sick and sadistic. And crowds of Israelis are out every night sitting on the hills, cheering and applauding every time an IDF missile hits a Palestinian apartment block. These are the same people who cheered and gave each other high fives when the WTC towers were burning. These are sick people.
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Post by debutante on Jul 16, 2014 7:33:30 GMT -5
Dear Zak:
I almost wish I could have a conversation with you on the phone or in person. Sometimes the limitations of message board posting get in the way of communication.
First off, I am not sure what you expect Joan to do. I'm sure you've seen the serenity prayer. If not, this is it:
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.
Zak, no matter what opinions Joan has (or doesn't have) is there anything she can actually do to change this situation? If there isn't (and you and I both know there isn't), you might consider if your reaction is totally fair. Even if she agreed with you -- how would that actually change what's happening in the Middle East?
I am totally sincere in saying I don't have a horse in this race. I'll tell you why. For the past few months, I haven't been feeling well. Somehow...once a person begins to feel their own mortality, the focus tends to shift a bit more inward. You look at your life and your interactions with the people you've known and wonder if you could have done things "differently" -- and if you had -- would things have been better (or worse)?
Because of this recent shift in attitude, I find myself coming to the conclusion that the people in your life are all that really matter. Believe me when I tell you that Joan cares more about you (in terms of friendship) than the people on the Gaza strip (who you probably don't actually know anyway). It's the caring and love people have for one another that's the only hope for things getting "better" -- one person at a time, one relationship at a time. If you want "peace" start here and now with Joan.
Friendship is valuable. There is precious little of it in the world. And frankly -- I think you're someone who needs friends who love you unconditionally. That's the key word here -- unconditionally. Without realizing it (I don't think you've thought everything through because you're kind of peppered up about the issue) -- you've place a "condition" on Joan. It is: I will only like you if you agree with me. The mere fact that you've done this without thinking -- makes me believe that you've been on the receiving end of such a philosophy. Trust me when I tell you that this kind of thing doesn't lead to true happiness. And weirdly, I want you to be happy. You need good friends and Joan is a good friend to you.
In addition -- you're asking Joan to be someone other than who she is -- and is that really fair? Her cultural identity is Jewish. Asking her to not be Jewish is rather a lot to ask when you really think about it. I don't know how much you identify with being "Irish" but let's assume for the moment that it means a lot to you. Would it be fair for someone to make being "not Irish in spirit" a condition for accepting you as a friend?
Just think about what I've said. Life is too short to let "political discussions" get in the way of your friendship.
--Debutante
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joan
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Post by joan on Jul 16, 2014 9:22:41 GMT -5
Thank you for your kind words, deb. I disappointed Zak, I know he doesn't hate me. It's a different world now since I was a child. Maybe I am in denial. Maybe I don't know enough. Maybe I'm dead wrong.
Really, though, is Zak my friend? We used to be closer, true, but he said he was in New York months back & made no attempt to contact me. So, were we ever friends?
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Post by debutante on Jul 16, 2014 10:02:06 GMT -5
Dear Joan:
I'd say that Zak is your friend to the level he is capable. Different people have different levels of commitment to the concept.
Given what I know of him -- he lives a somewhat international lifestyle. It's not much different than my friend in London -- who is friends with "everyone" all over the world. Trying to be friends with "everyone" leaves a person little time to consider the needs of a particular individual. In fact, I've recently had to take my friend in London to task for neglecting a "true friend" (just a regular person) in favor of his "famous" contacts. He simply takes too much for granted and our mutual friend had been very hurt by his lack of caring. It never even occurred to my London friend that he was being "uncaring" to someone who really cares about him. He simply didn't see it. Once I spoke to him about the situation -- well, they had dinner together and things worked out.
Thing is -- I doubt Zak realized you hoped he would contact you when he was in New York. Perhaps he was busy with business -- I don't know his purpose for being in town. But I can safely say that it wasn't an intentional slight on his part.
--Debutante
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Post by Roger (over and out) on Jul 17, 2014 4:51:22 GMT -5
Four Palestinian playing on the beach yesterday. A second after this photo was taken they were all dead, blown up by a missile fired from an Israeli gunship. Here are their friends, watching them being blown up. Here's the aftermath. Americans need to know what their tax dollars are paying for. Today, Thursday at 10 AM congress will vote on a bill which gives even more money to Israel while at the same time cutting the budget for American defense spending. secure.campaigner.com/CSB/public/archive.aspx?args=NjE1MTcxOQ%3D%3D
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Post by tricia on Jul 17, 2014 7:43:39 GMT -5
Crap...I had this big long post and I hit the wrong button in the middle of it.
Anyway, as I was saying....the boys were cousins ages 9 to 11. A couple of them tried to run to get out of the way but obviously couldn't. Israel says they were not purposely targeted nd they are *investigating*. The mother of a couple of the boys says that's a lie and she hopes the Israeli's die. (I'm paraphrasing) If they wer my children I would say the same thing. Matter of fact, if those little boys were purposely targeted, the people who did it should die. I know all of the details above because it was reported here this morning. (Imagine that!) It was the first thing I saw when I turned on my phone.
I also want to say that while I know you want to (and I think like to-though why I'm not sure)put the blame solely on the US...you DO realize that no one else is doiong anything eiither, right? The US may fund Israel but the US is also in debt to other countries that it borrows money from. I don't know all the exacts and facts the way you do but I do know that we are also dependent upon other countries. We could be hurt financially if one of them said "You tell Israel to knock that shit off or we're not funding you or we're not trading with you" or whatever they could do to hurt the US until it stopped.
Even if the US wasn't dependent on anyone else...no one else in the world can say anything? The United Nations called for a cease fire this morning between Israel and Palestine. Now who's that made up of? I'll presume it's not just the US...the UN can't tell the US to stop funding Israel or they're kicked out of the club? It doesn't matter who is doing the bullying, the killing, the whatever....when everyone else is the world is doing NOTHING how does it fall on the US completely? The US might be funding it but the people here have little say. You think I willingly hand over my money to force people out of their homes by killing them? You think I willingly hand over my money for anything? I think I speak for most Americans when I say I don't. Guess what though, I don't really have a choice because what *I* say doesn't matter....you know who *would* matter? Some of the leaders of all the other countries in the world-but it doesn't seem like they have much to say. That's okay though, right? It's just the US.
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